Quokk.auLemmy is designed to fail the same way as reddit when reaching the same size
iloveDigitI’ve been trying Lemmy for a little while and wasn’t sure how to feel about it.
Today, I wanted to start blocking the most high-censorship instances until I could find a fully zero-censorship instance and simply block all the ones with censorship. Filter bots, not people.
When I looked into it further, I found out there are no zero-censorship instances, because Lemmy relies on a broken “federation” system where each instance is supposed to be able to fetch posts from other instances, but it’s never been finished to reach a fully working state. Lemmy’s official docs say you can’t even do federation over Tor at all. This means it uses DNS, so it won’t actually allow Lemmy instances to fetch posts from each other freely, it just gets blocked instantly and easily, every time the authorities feel like blocking anything.
So you can only ever have the “average joe lemmy” and “average joe reddit” with everything approved by the authorities, and then “tor copies of lemmy” and “tor copies of reddit” where you have free speech but you can only reach other nerds.
People seem to think Lemmy is different because this weird censorship fetish is extremely popular and most of you are happy to see bans happen to certain people, not just bots, so a small Lemmy that censors certain people feels fundamentally different from a big reddit that censors more people. But it’s the exact same thing, it’s reddit.
When reddit was smaller, you could say basically anything you wanted there, they just wouldn’t let it reach the main audience. Then it got too big, and any tiny part of the audience you could reach would be too big, so they won’t let you talk at all.
Lemmy is now the small part of reddit where you can say whatever you want, separated from the main audience, until too much growth happens and you have to move again.
It’s not actually a solution to reddit. It’s not designed to be different, it’s designed to match the past today and then match reddit’s present tomorrow, while being part of a system that’s about the same in past, present, and future.
Last year, this year, and next year, you’re posting somewhere it won’t be seen by many people, and the system that charges people for ambulance rides is getting another year of ambulance ride revenue, facing no organized resistance. There’s no difference here.
Lemmy urgently needs federation between onion service instances and DNS addresses in order to actually do what most users seem to wish it would do: allow discussion outside what the corporate authorities allow, while outgrowing reddit & helping undo the damage social media has done to human communication.
Currently federation works now. You just don’t like how it works, and you’re paranoid that the authorities will intervene and dictate to Lemmy instances what they should do.
It doesn’t work for what many people wish it would do (and pretend it does), which is to create a decentralized discussion space controlled by the people and not restricted by the authorities
There’s no evidence of any restriction by the authorities.
Just because you are one of the people giving them authority doesn’t magically stop it from being authority. Authority isn’t a word for “others” that each person exempts self-related things from. Why the fuck do I have to keep explaining this and copying and pasting where I addressed it in my original post?
I am not a member of a government or regulatory body with powers of enforcement. I am just “some guy” here with opinions.
You considered that the admins of lemmy instances would implement rules regardless of what the audience thinks?
And apparently one of those opinions is that it’s fun to see people banned from political discussion, which means you’re one of the people granting some the authority to ban others, and apparently that makes you think it isn’t authority, which makes no sense, because nothing about the word “authority” makes it have everyone exempted from self-related things like it.
Yes, and since that was so weird, I looked into it more, and found out federation doesn’t really work due to the authorities, which makes more sense than thinking there’s just no anti-censorship server admins aware of Lemmy.
Yeah, you are using the word “authority” in an idiosyncratic way. That is not how it used. Yes, instance owners tend to have to listen to their audiences if they wish to maintain usage of their communities. This is just a negotiation that happens in life in general. Any service provider will have to account for what their audience wants, or they won’t have an audience. And presumably - they do want an audience in most classes.
Its also true that most instance owners set up their own rules from their own choices, unrelated to the crowd shouting at them.
There almost certainly are “anti-censorship” instances, but they are all blacklisted - so you will have to find them.
Nope, I am not using the word “authority” in an idiosyncratic way. The way I am using it is how it is used.
Are you trying to gaslight me, or what?
Why did you add this whole paragraph after the part about how “authority” is used, when it has nothing to do with the conversation?
I didn’t say it is. Are my replies different on your screen or something?
Why? What’s your train of thought from my post saying “we need a version of Lemmy that doesn’t blacklist them” to you being like “this guy will have to find them?”
Not in common parlance, and not in this context. It usually refers to people in positions of actual power. Stop being so sensitive. I find it hard to believe you could ever cope on a truly free speech instance.
Lemmy doesn’t blacklist these instances. Specific lemmy instances that most people know and use blacklist them.
Both in common parlance and in this context.
No, but if it did, that would still be irrelevant, since “mod/admin of a large online community” and “ICANN executive” and “President of the United States” are positions (with people in them) of actual power.
Why?
That’s dumb - am I allowed to use a stronger word for “dumb” or would I get banned here?
Then someone should change the docs to explain how to do Tor federation instead of saying it’s unsupported
No, it’s not. Someone with “authority” is usually someone with power, with the ability to sanction or punish someone for an action. That’s not me. I have no power to compel any instance to do what they like.
Can I see an example of when ICANN or the President leaned on or shut down a Lemmy/Piefed instance?
I don’t know if it can be done. If it can’t - that’s an issue for the developers, and I doubt they’re interested.
Correct, you don’t individually. You just use the relays you want to use, but if those are ones that censor people, then that’s how authority is generally more collective than authoritarians seem to think.
You give the President and random mods/admins the authority to potentially delete posts or have users banned, but you also collectively give yourselves and each other that authority. You want to pretend Nazis don’t exist, instead of dealing with them, so in your authority as a user, you use instances with admins in line with that.
Sure, if you can find a Lemmy instance hosted at an onion address, which honestly I would bet is probably out there.
According to the documentation, any Lemmy instance on an onion address would be sacrificing “federation” to use Tor, so it’s safe to assume the only instances doing that are the ones doing stuff ICANN / the President wouldn’t allow, and that would probably be confirmed by looking at those instances.
On the other hand, there might be none, in which case, no, the instances “shut down” from DNS/IP address access are gone, no onion address, nowhere left for you to see.
Have these relays now specifically censored anyone?
No, I just don’t want to interact with them an argue with them over whether or not Jews and LGBT people get to live.
So you don’t have an example?
You keep talking about the prospect of a Lemmy instance being censored by ICANN or the President directly, but it’s just simply never happened.
Yes, every instance (I accidentally said relay which fits fine, thanks for not nitpicking that) apparently blocks federation with any Tor instance, perhaps unintentionally.
I usually don’t either. I want my main social media feed to filter out the whole list of those people, like I want my Lemmy instance to filter out all Lemmy instances outside an uncensored cluster.
But it’s also a duty to spend time fighting with Nazis sometimes, and there are people like me who can take breaks from regular social interaction to thrive in doing that duty, unless you ban us and them for “using slurs” or something.
I’m definitely not looking for one. Are you trying to bait me into “incriminating” myself? Without federation, as I said, whatever ones are out there would surely be focused on stuff banned by the authorities.
That sounds insane. Can you support that statement by showing me a federated instance that doesn’t ban anyone but spammers, or another explanation for why they all do?
How do you know that this isn’t a decision of the Fediverse, and not from downward pressure?
Does not compute. If you want an uncensored feed, then that’s what you’ll get. You’ll get nazis in your feed all the time.
That’s a duty you can do for yourself even on mainstream sites like Twitter.
I’m asking for a time where a lemmy instance was pressued by a regulatory body to censor content.
Why do you assume that the only reason an instance would have rules against things other than spamming does so because of fear of state retalitation?
Have you considered that the owners and admins of the instances chose the rules because they want them and don’t believe in a free-for-all uncensored instance?
I don’t get what you’re trying to ask, but whatever it is, I get the feeling you ignored me saying “perhaps unintentionally.”
Didn’t ask.
Not so far.
It’s extremely weird that in this part you seem to have “everyone being uncensored” confused with “the Nazis censoring everyone else”
Get that looked at bro
Yeah, but I have more than 2 minutes in a day, so what do I do when Elon Musk has gotten as much of my attention as he deserves?
OK. I’m not helping find one you can still look at. I’m probably not helping find one at all. Try Google or something.
I don’t. Why do you pretend I assume that, while ignoring my questions? Just a weak attempt at gaslighting, right?
No, that would be a waste of time to consider since Lemmy advertises itself as “self-hostable” and there are people into so-called “self hosting” who are also into free speech.
What uncensored feeds are you looking at currently to know this?
What? I am saying that in a completely uncensored feed, whatever the site is, you’ll end up with nazis populating it. People don’t want to interact and associate with nazis. I said nothing about that particular group censoring anything.
You could just use Twitter generally and interact in an almost no-moderating environment. Or go to 4chan. Or many other sites that I’m sure exist.
So no evidence. Got it. You are just making things up.
Everything I do apparently is gaslighting, according to you.
So why do you think lemmy.world has rules beyond just blocking spam?
Yeah, I’m talking about specific instances. The lemmy.world owners and admins. The sh.itjust.work owners and admins. They make their own decisions for their own instance. They don’t control other instances that are made that yes, are self-hostable.
Good for them. What’s your point?
I don’t get what you’re trying to ask. Again, I have not gotten any uncensored feeds just by wanting them so far. Freedom isn’t free.
It’s extremely weird that your explanation of what no censorship would supposedly be like, is exactly how Nazis censoring everyone else would actually be.
Nazis typically explain what no censorship would supposedly be like, by describing how it would actually be if they could censor everyone else - instead of actually explaining what no censorship would be like.
Why did you put this after a quote section of yet another question you ignored, while basically repeating the point I was addressing with that question? Just another attempt at gaslighting, right?
Incorrect. Did you try looking it up?
That’s not what I said, but it sounds like it might be a confession, falsely attributed to me.
Because it’s run by glowies, duh.
Why did you waste my time with such a dumb question right after quoting more of my questions you refuse to answer?
Not sure what you mean but sounds irrelevant
Internet stuff isn’t literally self-hostable. “Self hosting” is basically just a euphemism for using your own server, not literal.
The point was what I said it was: that therefore, what you suggested considering would be a waste of time to consider.
Why did you need that repeated? Seems like more trolling and gaslighting
So you don’t know what they’ll actually look like - but we can make a good guess by looking at Twitter and 4chan.
No? I said they’d be there to take advantage of it and just spam up the feed.
Other repulsive people would be there too, of course.
“Any disagreement or question I don’t like is gaslighting”
You made the claims. You back it up. Not moving on this.
So every single community that has rules beyond “don’t spam” are run by glowies? Without exception?
They aren’t told to. They aren’t pressured into. They have specific ideals for their instance that they wish to happen via the rules of their instance.
Okay. So? I’m not interested in the semantics. The Lemmy software is accessible for anyone to spin up and use as they like.
Incorrect. Twitter is gone and was censored. X, the replacement, is censored. 4chan is censored.
Incorrect. You suggested they would be the ones censoring everyone else, not the ones having a bunch of removed spam posts.
Again, you might want to get that looked at by a professional.
Duh. This must go hard af when you have 62 IQ
Incorrect. Look up what gaslighting is.
Why?
Didn’t ask.
You said “so” here like what you’re asking if this is a rephrasing of what I said.
No, and it’s a completely bad faith attempt to rephrase me.
Every single community that has rules beyond “don’t spam” is run by people who agree with glowies on having more rules than “don’t spam," and what I said was that lemmy.world, a particular instance (not every instance), is run by people who are glowies.
This shouldn’t need to be clarified, but you keep making me clarify already-clear shit because you’re discussing this in bad faith.
Didn’t ask, why waste time with this?
Into what? Probably incorrect, but finish your point
Didn’t ask, why waste time with this?
Didn’t ask, why waste time with this?
But less censored than most places, and they’re a shithole.
No, I did not. That’s not what I meant. You’re just wrong.
So now into personal insults, are we?
Have you heard of the burden of proof?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)
Okay, that’s not what you seemed to say initially. But so how is lemmy.world specifically “run by glowies”?
“My own poor ability to explain what I mean shouldn’t be clarified. People should just know my clearly bizarre mindset”.
They aren’t pressured into having rules that they hacvve chosen to have.
That’s what Lemmy means when they talk about self-hosting.
You seem to be operating under basic definitions of words that no-one else does.
Incorrect. Twitter, X, and 4chan so far have all been more censored than most places have been throughout human history, contributing to their shithole statuses.
Yes you did.
Didn’t ask. Not my problem. Get it looked at by a professional.
Nope.
I don’t know, are we? I definitely am.
Yes, I mentioned it earlier in this thread. The person it should be on in this context is you, since you’re the one making the outlandish claims and offering nothing to back them up.
Incorrect. You understood me fine, you’re just pretending otherwise as a form of gaslighting.
My understanding is they mainly use keyboard, mouse, and touchscreen for inputs, while using screens to see what they’re doing.
Why did you just make me explain that? Dumb as fuck.
Stop putting your own statements in quote marks, it’s weird. And maybe you should stop wasting my time if you can’t handle clarifying your own statements.
Incorrect, as I assumed.
What I asked was why waste my time with it when I didn’t ask. This doesn’t seem like a reason.
Incorrect. Maybe what you mean to say is I’m one of the few people who still tend to use “literal” and “literally” correctly.
You think they’d somehow be better if they weren’t censored? Both Twitter and 4chan have less rules than Reddit or Lemmy.
No, I did not.
You made an accusation, I reject it.
So should I report you? That’s usually against instance rules.
What claims have I made? Be specific.
No, you specifically said: “Because they’re glowies”. No nuance.
What is your definition of “glowie” here? My understanding is that it’s supposedly an undercover government agent. Got any evidence for this for lemmy.world mods?
I’ll do whatever I like. And I wasn’t clarifying my statements, more noting your complaining about being asked to clarify.
No reason to believe they are “pressured”. You’ve never backed this up.
You don’t really use any words correctly. They’re all a bit off.
Not sure what you’re trying to say here. Get better at typing.
Is repeatedly lying making you feel better about any of this?
Sounds like a you problem.
I don’t care, but your question baits me to say something you could try to use to justify getting me banned, which sucks. Try asking on nostr, where I can’t be banned, if you want my answer.
Didn’t ask.
What’s in it for me?
To be clear, that’s a rhetorical question. I understand that you have nothing real to offer anyone.
Misuse of “no” since this doesn’t change what I said, which is still true.
Also, didn’t ask.
The colloquial one, originating from Terry Davis.
Yep.
Do you read what you type?
Didn’t ask. You should stop putting your own statements in quote marks, it’s weird.
Again, didn’t ask, didn’t finish reading this sentence, stopped at “more” since you keep refusing to explain why you wasted time typing things after I waste time reading them and ask why
Incorrect.
Incorrect again.
Incorrect yet again. I’m basically the most fluent English speaker alive (and quite monolingual).
4chan and Twitter are less censored than Reddit, but even more garbage.
I’m not lying. You just can’t read. I did not imply that nazis would somehow take over and censor a hypothetically unmoderated space.
I don’t see how that question baits you.
You keep replying. I obviously don’t need to give you anything here.
So as I said: Where’s your evidence of lemmy.world mods being glowies?
Yes. You did claim that lemmy.world mods are glowies. Source
“So why do you think lemmy.world has rules beyond just blocking spam?”
“Because it’s run by glowies, duh.”
I’ll do whatever I like.
Name me these reasons for them being pressured.
You think you’re the best living english speaker on the planet?
“Less censored” and “more garbage” are both heavily debatable, but why did you bring this up? What’s the relevance?
That’s why I suggested you try asking on nostr, instead of here. It’s hard to know the answers to questions you’ve asked in places the person you’re asking knows it’s not really possible to give an appropriate answer.
I didn’t ask, but why did you put this right after a part where you ignored yet another question I asked? At least it was explicitly a rhetorical question this time, but still weird behavior to keep copying and pasting all the questions for no reason.
I’ll half-answer this if you answer one of the many questions you’ve ignored from me.
Why are you acting like I suddenly forgot this?
I didn’t ask if you would.
You should stop putting your own statements in quote marks, it’s weird.
What do you mean by “these?”
Most fluent, that’s what the evidence suggests.
It shows that we have a good idea what will happen without censorship.
I don’t really give a fuck about your questions.
It’s pathetic that it took so many posts for you to finally acknowledge this question.
What sort of comical Jordan Peterson style reply is this lmao
Lmao what evidence fucking hell
How would it do that? How does it do that?
I didn’t ask if you do.
How many?
Also, is there a way to tell if (or maybe when) a post here is edited, so you could prove your answer with numbered links?
Neither comical nor Jordan Peterson style.
If I remember right you said “these rules” but it was a question, so it’s acting like I somehow know what set of rules you mean when you didn’t establish a group of rules to be talking about before calling it “these rules”
The lack of anyone else demonstrating the same level of fluency as me despite what seems like immense pressure to do so in the current state of the anglosphere / planet
By being less censored than Reddit, and both being complete garbage and full of slop, spam and trolls.
How would they do that? You’ve spoken to everyone to know that you have better fluency?
Why should I do that?
No, it wasn’t.
I was asking what pressure the lemmy.world admins were supposedly under when they made the instance.
If that was all true, I still don’t see how it would answer my question.
Same ways as me, I guess (except more)
Your fluency is so bad that’s what you thought I said?
Or are you just a deeply dishonest person?
Do what? You put this after the part where you copied and pasted me asking if there’s a way to prove your answer with numbered links - are you asking me what the burden of proof is yet again? Why do you keep acting like you need things repeated so many times? And you still didn’t answer the question, is there a way to tell if (or maybe when) a post here is edited?
Incorrect. It was.
I didn’t ask what you had been asking at the time, and putting this after the “no, it wasnt” makes it seem like this is all supposed to flow together to someone who’s not paying attention. But it’s weird to do this manipulative stuff for “someone who’s not paying attention” because, once again I tell you brother, it is pretty much just us this deep into this subthread so far.
It’s closer to being uncensored than Reddit or the Fediverse.
What a non-answer.
If you haven’t spoken to everyone, then how can you know that you are the most fluent English speaker on the planet?
I did none of this. My dude, you don’t even know how to check if a post is edited and you’re coming up with grand plans for how the future of Lemmy should go.
No, it wasn’t.
Whatever this slop is above me, it’s not an answer. I was asking what pressure the lemmy.world admins were supposedly under when they made the instance.