Quokk.auMust fight temptation to buy an overpriced raspberry pi
Drewhttps://sopuli.xyz/pictrs/image/2f238a8b-b4fe-46d2-8e27-85c9f8710c40.webp
original post: https://mk.moth.zone/notes/a8zer7ypj6uv02ka
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Also, there are so many clones out there. I think now we're at maybe around four different brands you can choose from other than Raspberry Pi. And these prices are just inflated, absolutely inflated. Like price gouging. Like nonsense.
If you only need a basic server, laptops are AMAZING.
- Full x86 software support
- On the rare occurrence you need to directly interface with it (as opposed to through a webgui on another machine) you have a built-in keyboard and monitor.
- They have a god-damned built-in UPS
Note that the battery will generally stop working after a long enough time turned on and powered via AC, but otherwise yeah.
True. The best laptops are the ones that let you set a charge limit in the BIOS.
For what it's worth, though, the exact same happens to UPSes
That depends on the age and quality of the laptop. It's been a while since some started directly running off the cable when the battery is full.
Huh? If it can be used while it is charging - which is all laptops since forever - then it will run off the adapter while plugged in. Regardless of the battery state. You cannot charge a battery and discharge it at the same time - if it is charging then power must be coming from anything other then the battery. Epically with LiPo batteries which you cannot continue charging after they are full - doing so will cause them to burst into flames. So all LiPo charging circuits will cut off power to the cells once they reach a desired voltage - weather that is considered 100% (aka once it reaches 4.2V) or at a configurable lower amount.
Their comment was indicating that laptop batteries will be damaged if left plugged in constantly. Which is a thing that can happen with some laptops, and most old ones.
My comment was about how some modern laptops when left plugged in, will charge the battery and then start running directly from the wall-power once the battery is full. They bypass the charging once it is indicated to have a "full charge".
will charge the battery and then start running directly from the wall-power once the battery is full. They bypass the charging once it is indicated to have a “full charge”.
That does not make sense. Batteries cannot be charged and discharged at the same time - they are either charging or discharging or neither. When a device is in use while it is plugged in the device is being run directly from wall power - and anything left if sent to charge the battery. The only devices that don't do that is ones that power off while the charger is plugged in - which does not include any laptop that I have ever seen, generally just smaller devices.
Modern laptops have smarter controllers that can turn off charging before the battery is full or when other conditions are met. But none are able to draw power from the battery while the battery is being charged - that just does not make any sense.
Laptops run on "burst" computing profiles in a lot of engineering situations, occasionally this applies to both the thermal design (runaway heatsoak if used at full tilt) but also battery design. I've seen several machines that will dip into their battery in addition to the charger to boost performance and dump wattage into the chips beyond what would be available from the adapter alone. I don't necessarily think it's good design, but modern battery chems don't really give a shit about up/down momentary charge cycles. Also the Chem they're using is not LiPo based as that chemistry while allowing for significant amperage to be drawn, is not stable enough for a laptop that is generally expected not to ignite.
Well you have have battery profile settings so you could just set it to never charge above 75% and it will last a long time.
Also UPSs need replaced like every 2 years and according to Jim Salter tend to catch fire if you don't?
I guess I was lucky my UPS batteries lasted 10 years. The last year their charge capability dropped off fast, and one was starting to bulge. Not Lithium though, just LeadAcid, so more of a leak hazzard than fire hazzard
starman2112I have a decade old lenovo yoga that still lasts like 40 minutes unplugged. Idunno how much a UPS that can supply a desktop for that long would cost, nor if that's an embarrassingly short time, but it works well enough for me
UPS systems are generally configured for 90 minutes of operation, depending on the criticality of the system they're connected to. The best ones are programable and will actually send graceful shutdown signals (when configured to do so) to your server cluster to prevent data loss that occurs during system blackouts. You can emulate this behavior on your laptop with a script that checks battery% every 10-15 minutes, sending a shutdown signal if it falls below a treshhold you set.
Swedneckhonestly for a home server i'd be happy with like 10 minutes battery life, just need enough to let the computer survive tripping a breaker and resetting it.
an actual outage is basically an act of god and not worth worrying about for something you can just.. push the power button on
Size right for your setup and risk tolerance. Just know every outage can come with data loss. Most do not, but it is not a guarantee.
Would pulling out the battery (if possible) and running the laptop only via AC be a viable way to prevent unnecessary battery wear?
I remember back when I didn't have a desktop PC yet I had a crusty old ASUS laptop that was basically at death's door and I specifically remember just running it on AC alone because the battery was.. uh.. gone
Justas🇱🇹Removing the battery when using AC used to be the advice to prolong the battery life a decade ago.
Yeah, that's about the right time period for my old ASUS LOL. Does that advice still hold up nowadays or is it outdated? Does it apply only to older machines maybe?
Not all batteries are easy to remove nowadays. Also, power management might have gotten better and the battery circuit mostly disconnects when not in use.
Some won't boot without a detectable battery cell. Depends entirely on the laptop in question what the best course of action is. Most newer bios handle charge profiles automatically and will prevent ac related damage but it's all dependant on how they were designed/made.
It does not matter if the battery is plugged in or not. Far more important is the state of the battery. All LiPo batteries degrade over time. But they can degrade faster or slower depending on the state they are stored in. They degrade faster when at higher charge levels or when stored in hotter environments or if they go through more charge/discharge cycles. Older battery technology also degraded faster in general, new ones tend to last longer in sub-optimal conditions.
Apart from newer battery technology itself battery monitoring and charging technology has also improved. A lot of modern laptops have smarter charging circuitry that lets them stop charging before the battery is at 100%, sometimes configurable in the bios, sometimes controllable via the OS. This can help a lot to preserve the battery life for longer, especially if you leave it plugged in as it spends less time at 100% charge. Older devices also tended to run hotter for longer periods of time, even when idle. Both of these combined with worst battery technology would lead to batteries degrading quite a lot faster if you left them plugged in all the time - hence where the advice came from (note that removing the battery at 100% charge was also not great for it, better to store lipo batteries at 40-60% charge, but it did still save it from the heat of the device) . But when setup correctly modern devices suffer from this a lot less so it is much less important to remove the battery at all - I doubt you would really notice the difference overall on modern systems.
You're mistaken. Laptop cells do not behave in this way or use LiPo chemistries. They're Lion chems and behave entirely different.
The magic words for ebay:
off lease thin client lot
oh wow, I really wish I had known that last time I was looking for mini PCs for my cluster, I'm saving that now. Thank you!
Colonel PanicWhat does this combination of words mean?
x00zIt's too much power draw for me.
AustralianSimonThis. Even a cheap alibaba n100 would be way better on Power than pretty much any laptop.
Quick computation for Seattle, powering a typical laptop consuming 20W to run say an IoT server, 24/7 at 14 cents/kwh would cost about $25/year. A Pi 4 would be about 1/10th of that.
Owl* if you live in a country where used things are affordably priced
Or live in a country with laptop-filled landfills or free old laptops roaming the streets.
In my experience rPi was terrible as a local server. The micro SD cards would fail regularly and I just got tired of handling backups and restoring them. I switched to a set up box type tiny PC and it's stable as rock in comparison. Old laptop would be even better for that, shame I didn't think about it.
Not all SD cards are created the same, but also make sure you add "temp to RAM" setup so the constant tmp writes are not burning out the card.
Lenovo thinkcentre tiny gang rise up!
I even use it as my daily driver (bumped RAM & storage), running Lemmy & Tenfingers plus all the usual jazz.
I will have to replace my old NAS one day because it's super old, I'll probably just chuck some drives into a think centre tower or something... I wonder how long time it will take before the electricity consumption would have made it cheaper to buy one of those increasingly expensive NASes...
Tenfingers needs to work on their SEO; I searched for exactly that and most of the first few results were 10fastfingers, which is exactly what came to my mind when I read your post! Even the first one that seemed to be what you're referencing was about how to install it, rather than what I was trying to find: what it is.
Sounds like a nifty tool, I'll have to investigate it. Thanks for introducing me to it.
For anyone who, like me, was unfamiliar but curious: https://www.tenfingers.org/introduction.html
Thank you, yes I (I'm the creator) have ironed out the last large potential known problem (a specific type of mitm attack) and have been a bit overwhelmed by ordinary life lately. I'm working on what you might hint at, a less technical introduction to tenfingers. Basically it works like a decentralised online file system where you give the reading rights (to anyone or a select few) how you see fit. FOSS, encrypted & so on, more info in the above link :-)
BTW don't hesitate to hit me up if there are any questions!
Cheers
Hello! To be clear, first, this is all subjective. My opinion doesn't mean much.
However, if you're inclined to consider my opinion, the intro page was largely fine. Yes, it could be improved, but so could pretty much any intro/about page. I, an amateur, wouldn't consider that my priority were I in your position.
The problem I had was that you didn't show up when I searched for the exact name of your project. I have never done SEO so I can't specifically suggest improvements in that regard ... Except that your project name is fairly generic and not really related to the function of the software. Unless you get big, people are going to have trouble finding you. You should go for something more specific or at least unique.
Otherwise, as I said, at a glance your tool looks pretty cool. I wish you luck with it.
But your opinion does count! Thank you again.
This ten+ years project is coming to fruition, and I will have to switch gears away from dorky coding and, as you say, promoting the project. I'm a lousy promoter :-)
The name officially comes from the ten "fingers" holding your data (like when your PC is turned off, (*up to) ten others serve it), and unofficially from the reaction to five eyes (the spy thing Snowden uncovered). Finger in the eye sort of, as it circumvents the spying on people and data.
Time to promote I guess!
I personally hadn't heard the ten fingers metaphor - it makes sense but I wasn't familiar. I do know of the five eyes but likely wouldn't have made the connection.
If you are taking my thoughts into consideration: no matter how meaningful your project name is, it doesn't matter if it's not unique. Now that I know what it means, I can appreciate it, but (until it gets big) I still need to look it up. If you called it something like "Avoid the Ten Fingers" or "Ten Fingers Privacy" it would be a lot easier to find (note that I don't recommend either of those names, but you're welcome to them if you find them palatable).
I'm thinking of "ungoogleable." My best example of this used to be the band "The The" but I guess Google cottoned on to this because they're the first result now.
Anyway, I've never done any promoting of any kind. Please do not take my advice as any kind of expertise. Good luck with your promoting!
Thanks again!
The full name is the Tenfingers sharing protocol (& implementation), but I think it's not high on the search lists because it's kind of unknown, I have now to publish it so that people can test it and start to use it regularly.
I'm thinking of starting off in ask lemmy, to find places where people might want to check it out, lots of smart people around here :-)
🇰 🌀 🇱 🇦 🇳 🇦 🇰 🇮But I don't want a laptop. I want the gimmick computer for random as fuck niche hobby tinkering. Like making an automated Nerf turret.
BlackmistI did try, but it was so shit that Linux refused to boot on it.
I'm more inclined to get one of the mini PCs but need a way to get a full size HDD or two in it for Jellyfin.
NVME / M.2 to 6x SATA boards, cheap enough on AliExpress.
I have an x16 PCIE bifurcated to 4 m.2 slots so a theoretical 24 SATA ports. Only one adaptor currently but lots of room to grow.
If it wasn't for Linux, these old computers would be useless. We need to remind them of that and not buy them for high prices. Beat them fucking prices down into a pulp. Your prices are too high you need to cut it. And not with baking soda but Common Sense. Don't be a thot... Get these prices to drop
Have you looked at the price of these old dusty ass laptops online? Like, they want a fortune for them. I'm just gonna wait until they're buried in Old Tech and then they eventually start selling them for cheap because I ain't buying that. Orange pis are way too expensive and raspberry pis are just irresponsible. Peaks and valleys, peaks and valleys. All this capitalist innovation, but yet we can't afford it. What is it good for? Absolutely nothing.
Lee DunaI have several options here : OrangePI, used Android TV box, mini PC, thin-client and laptop.
currently just installed dual boot Linux on my old mini PC (Celeron 1007U, 8GB RAM, 512GB HDD)
When I think of Raspberry Pi, I think of physical computing and not a server for the use case, which can't be replaced with a laptop.
This is something I've been thinking about this week actually. My old laptop has just died, power button just won't do anything, so I've been thinking about what to replace it with.
Hoping I can maybe find a tossed out win 10 laptop with the end of life happening soon.
boredsquirrelYou can also rip apart such a laptop if you really want headless. Otherwise, a screen is pretty handy!
Funny thing is how to get the screen off if you are in a TTY. still not sure how!
I feel like the power consumption is worth considering as well.
hauiDepends i guess.
A normal laptop is already power optmized in comparizon to a desktop pc but would probably 4-10x the amount of electricity it consumes compared to a new and efficient pi.
This seems like a lot, especially if it is run continuously. 50 watts to 5 watts can mean 25 to 250 €$ a year. Which is quite a steep difference.
But the vast majority of people (like 99%) will not have to deal with this comparison. Also, 50 watts on a laptop will mean A LOT of load. Even if someone decided to run it continuously, it still wouldnt necessarily consume that much.
The much more important aspect in my book is helping to democratize the world through normalization of not buying new. Everyone who decides to keep using instead of consuming helps the cause.
Jake FarmOr a used smart phone.
OpticalMooseWhat can I do with a smart phone? (curious because I have a few of them)
InEnduringGrowStrongSome of the things ive used an old smartphone for:
- A baby monitor
- A webcam
- A home automation (homeassistant) dashboard
And if you actually want something new, get an n100 minipc.
They are cheap and punchy
They are but getting used is the much better choice in any case. The additional benefit for one does just not outweigh all the drawbacks.
Yeh, I commented before I realised the community.
Re-using is absolutely better
I really enjoyed reading this comment. :) thank you for being here.
I am coming into a loooooot of hp all in ones with 27 inch screens. Them being touch turns them into the clunkiest kiosk you've ever seen.
Coworker has called me a tech raccoon.
I second this motion
l a p p i e s
That word made me hear the whole thing in an Australian accent.
True, but we don't really say landfill, rather "tip".. So..
Strong Bad vibes
It's not just the size constraint. The power usage is significant...
If you have the lid closed, you're looking at 3 to 15 watts to have a laptop running in the background doing some basic server shit.
Maybe a little more under high load, but those are going to be intermittent and not constant.
I'm just saying it's not that much more electricity usage, and the recycling more than offsets the CO2.
Not all laptops make effective use of power with the lid closed, sadly. Not saying this as a correction, but for others to know that they need to make sure these settings are available in the bios of the system they are buying.
Laptop performance when closed is quite variable, but depending on where you live, each 10W of idle consumption 24/7/365 could cost you somewhere around $20/yr (assumes @$0.20/kWh, YMMV). This isn't overwhelming on it's own, but it is "cost difference between a junked laptop and a Raspberry Pi" kinda money.
And you are often paying 140-200 for a pi nowadays to make it have the same usability as a laptop (pi, power supply, sata hat, data drive because SD cards simply fail after a while under server IO) while you can get cheap used laptops for 0-100.
So unless you are running it for more than half a decade (which rarely happens with selfhosters for a main server), you are probably spending more in total on the pi.
I think SD card failure rates are way overblown if you're buying from reputable manufacturers (Sandisk, Samsung). I'm sure they do occasionally fail, but I've never experienced one.
You're right, for really intensive tasks the costs can climb, but I see people asking for ideas for what to do with a junk laptop and the top suggestion is always something like pi-hole or a bookmark manager that could run on a potato.
Like with most things in life, it depends.
I used to think so too, but my pi-hole just died the other week after four years of uptime. Couldn't work it out, finally pulled the SD card out to reinstall the OS and found my laptop wouldn't recognise it.
Made me glad I don't run my mailserver on a Pi anymore!
I join you, I used to change SD card and USB disk every 1-2 year. I bought a nas 3 year ago didn't need to change disk yet.
I have a high fail rate with Samsung SD cards. Oddly the cheap-o no name ones haven't failed yet.
Laptops are not generally designed to run like that with a closed lid. Heat dissipation is designed around the idea the laptop is open and some of it is through the keyboard surface. The lid closed would change that.
Systems can of course be setup to power off the display but for server/service uses open laptops may not be efficient space wise.
Having said that if the scenario is low power use the heat dissipation may not be a major issue. But if there is an unremovable battery i'd still be concerned about heat dissipation with the lid closed and even just the battery itself regardless of heat dissipiation.
Just remove the lid entirely.
Not quite. Unless the system has pretty advanced power management and is using very recent technology with high density, it's unlikely that an x64 chipset will use less power than a comparably powered arm64 chipset. Not just the processor, but the smaller board is actually a power saver and allows it to generate less heat meaning both less power wasted and dissipated as heat as well as less power needed for fans to properly dissipate the heat. I've never seen a laptop use 3W at idle when considering the whole device, maybe just the CPU, but not if you include the rest of the components like RAM and disks and power supply. And especially true in a laptop that is old enough that it's being recycled. Heck, the power supply and charger alone might be using 3W at idle with full battery.
With a raspberry pi 4, the typical power usage for the 2GB RAM model is 5W under load for the whole device and about half that for idle. Add a couple of watts for the extra memory and wider bus on the 8GB model and other things can add to that, but that's mostly accurate. The pi 5 is a little more and the 3 is a little less. Of course, the efficiency of the laptop at full load might end up being better than a comparable number of raspberry pis it would take to do the same amount if work, but comparing a single pi or any other reputable arm-based, single board computer to a single laptop at idle is always going to be that way.
Battery charging circuits don't operate continuously when the device is charged. Pi also still needs a PSU, typically a phone charger, and for a server application would need an SSD or HDD in most cases. SD cards have lower performance, write endurance, and capacity after all. A single raspberry pi couldn't match even a somewhat old laptop in performance. In terms of actual efficiency (performance per watt) Pis don't do that well as they are using cheap processors made using old core designs and even older process nodes. Even the latest Pi 5 uses a 16nm process node with a core design from 2018. A 10 year old laptop might have 14nm process node which would be better. This means that a laptop would have more performance, so even if it had more power consumption at peak it could still end up with significantly better performance per watt, and that extra performance allows it to idle more often as it spends less time processing requests.
Of course the ultimate in performance per watt is always going to be a modern high power server or an Apple Silicon device. Mini PCs can also do well for home use, and are much lower power so better suited to less demanding usage, and have the best performance per watt for consumer devices. The M4 Mac Mini for example is pretty much best in class in performance per watt, and low power consumption at the same time.
Battery circuits come on enough to be a load that needs to be considered and will show up if you measure load on the device vs load consumed by the components connected to the power supply. In terms of low power devices, it is significant, though not the primary concern. But compared to the pi PSU, the charger not to mention the battery and internal PSU of a laptop, consume way more power and produce way more heat.
All of the rest assumes needing always on, heavy load processing which isn't what the post I replied to was talking about. I was specifically replying to idle power load. And in my case, even with a bunch of self hosted applications, most of the time my servers are idling. If I was running a virtualization farm or something that was always under heavy load, then yes, as I mentioned, a single board server isn't ideal.
As for disks, I don't use SSDs on my pis except one that actually does a lot of local data processing. Everything else runs in memory and stores persistent data on my NAS, including logging. Virtual memory/swap is disabled on all and things that need temporary storage/cache of small amounts of data is cached on RAM disks where applications can't be configured to not use disk caching. The only need for the SD card is for boot and some minimal IO needed for local OS operation. I have a Raspberry Pi 3 B i got about 8 or 9 years or so ago with the same SD card in it.
They aren't what I use as a database server, obviously, but they are extremely low power compared to what an old laptop would need and work great for things like pihole, and other network applications as well as being a part if my home kubernetes cluster and run the majority of the cluster's processes on demand.
Not so sure about the last part. It takes ehhh about 3kg of c02 to produce 1 Watt for a year. Carbon footprint to build a laptop is about 200kg or so, but you're not offsetting one of those you're offsetting the raspberry PI you WOULD have bought which is just a small fraction of that. After a year or 2 you've almost certainly burned through your c02 savings if it's on all the time.
A raspberry pi is not as efficient as people are claiming. They need up to 25W PSU for a reason. Laptops can idle lower than that certainly. Something like a MacBook Air M1 would idle in single digit territory, as would any netbook basically ever made. Only really high performance or older laptops have idle power draw issues since battery life is a major selling point of a laptop. Said laptop is probably also faster than a raspberry pi. The people building Pi clusters are really not doing themselves any favors with power efficiency.
Nah no way does the average ewaste tier laptop use less power than a raspberry pi for any given task. The power consumption floor for a laptop may be lower than the rpi ceiling but that's not a fair comparison
Benchmark it and tell me. The truth is that most RPis are made using older process nodes to reduce costs. Laptops are often made using the best avaliable process node and core design. A modern raspberry pi 5 uses a 16nm processor with Cortex-A76 design from 2018. A laptop in 2015 would be using 14nm Broadwell processors from Intel. This was a time when 15W U series processors were gaining popularity, so sustained load power consumption is quite low. A 2015 laptop is 10 years old, and wouldn't run Windows 11, so will be ewaste this year. Same with a lot of 8 year old machines actually.
Fake news. Modern RPis need up to 25W PSU. Even old laptops could idle lower than that, as otherwise they wouldn't be able to get significant battery life. Turning off the screen will also really lower their power consumption.
You're comparing a laptop at idle to the power supply for a pi that needs to power it at full load plus overhead and inefficiencies. That's like comparing apples to an orange tree.
I mean sure. If you want to compare actual efficiency then performance per watt is the metric. Here a laptop would easily win as it has higher performance for similar power. The TDP of a U class processor is only 15W normally. It would obviously help to disable things like Turbo Boost as well. Said laptop having more performance wouldn't need to stay at high power states for as long as the Pi either as it takes less time to process requests. Returning back to idle faster is a big advantage.
I have one of those 8.1 laptops - I LITERALLY fished it out of a dumpster.
The power constraints are more important to most than the size constraints honestly.
Yeah, my pi sips energy very sparingly. Even an old laptop is going to be drawing more just to power itself, never mind what I run on it.
That said, pis are a poor value proposition nowadays and there are better options for the same use case
Oh absolutely, it really upsets me that they never dropped the prices down after covid supply issues were resolved. They were really proud of being accessible price-wise once upon a time ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
What are the better options?
Pis have great software support so for GPIO experimentation it's so useful.
Not super familiar with the gpio side of things, and I also haven't dug that deep into the space lately since I already own my rpi and it works for me so take all this with a pinch of salt, but I found some options that seem reasonable
It's been a while but I remember Orange Pi having terrible support? I haven't heard of the others.
Whereas the RPi has the amazing compute module if you need it too.
Sometimes paying more is better.
Oh, for sure. It depends what you need it for. A lot of people just want a pi for something like a pihole or a stats dashboard of some kind (that's my use case, anyway). You get what you pay for and sometimes you've gotta pay for what you wanna get.
There is quite a range of devices out there now with varying capabilites. Things like the Onion Omega2+, Oranage Pi, and more.
Raspberry Pi also remains good. While the Pi5 is expensive and more powerful - raspberry pi also makes the Pi Zero boards which are cheaper less capable boards which are closer to what the original raspberry Pi was but newer hardware.
I'd say the Pi5 is a heading more towards a full PC like device (hence the comparisons to cost and capability minipcs pepple are making in thia thread). But there remain plenty of lower spec machines out there now similar to the original cheap Raspberry Pi concept. And we've had high inflation recently - to some extent the cost perception avtually reflects money being worth less than it was and buying less for $10 or $20.
Yeah, the Pi moving to full computer thing is weird because the SD card is still a massive bottleneck on normal day-to-day usage.
Not the person you're asking but personally I use Jetson nano for some work stuff (and when I upgrade the "old" one is mine), odroid I've used for some misc creations and testing, and I'm personally looking forward to trying the radxa x4 as an htpc.
What I am really excited about right now is tossing my recently acquired spare jetson nano on a drone, right now I'm setting it up to walk around with it and test CV before it gets mounted up on the drone.
Will you use a separate flight controller chip or try to do it all on board?
Going separate for now, maybe later I'll go for all on the same
You lose the I/O and power efficiency is no comparison. You can get better power efficiency and sometimes some I/O with an old router and OpenWRT, but you'll be in the class of a Beagle Bone and a much harder learning curve. I've never managed to get a sensor or peripheral working on some old laptop's SPI or I2C buses like how easy it is on a Rπ.
New low end chromebooks are much better for this anyway, an intel N4000 will consume just 8 watts at its peak and it's even supported by Windows 11, and they are usable if you put Linux on them
You can get an esp32 or whatever and have io
I mostly agree, and did the same with my second gen lab build - instead of shiny new NUCs like I had used round 1, I bought old off lease Dell Xeon boxes. SO MANY PROS -
* Got them up to 14c/28t each
* They can take GPUs and actually do heavy transcoding/ML work
* They can take up to like, 128GB of memory, which is GREAT when they're all hypervisors
The downsides can't be denied though -
* Even without the GPUs and beefed up CPUs, they are power hogs - the CPU alone uses more than an ENTIRE NUC
* They run HOT
* They run LOUD
The same holds true for off-lease SFF stuff, Lenovo and the likes ...
So while reuse/repurpose is absolutely of the utmost importance, no question - when it comes to technology and how quickly it advances and miniaturizes, a thorough and logical pros/cons list is often required.
I'd add another option though - if you do need what a Pi brings to the table - do you really need a shiny new Pi 5? Is it possible a used Pi 3 or Pi 4 would do the trick, and check the reuse box?
The power aspect is a lot bigger of a factor than I would have thought. I had an old computer I was going to use as a server for Foundry that I could keep up all the time, but when I measured its wattage and did the math, it would cost me $20 a month to keep on. A pi costs like $2 to keep running, so it paid for itself pretty quick
RPis aren't energy efficient either. Any situation where you are thinking of putting more than one of them in a cluster you should just buy mini PCs instead.
All computers are single board computers if you take out their guts and tape them to a board
And they passively cool better that way much of the time too...
Technically a Pi is a single chip computer but they're called an SBC because they replaced stuff like a Motorola 68HC11.
It's a good idea until you consider the fact that a Raspberry Pi will be astronomically more power efficient.
If you think in flops per watt, maybe a little bit, but not a lot. Do you have one or two good procs for almost free, or half a dozen new sbcs at $100 each? Takes a while to save back that amount in power.
My question is usually not how many flops, but how quickly and reliably those watts can give me just a few flops on demand.
I would say it can sometimes be nice to have an old
Laptop for this purpose, you have to slightly over build your solar but can be nice to have a mouse and keyboard attached and monitor, ssh works. Still have an hp laptop with a core i5 2nd gen sitting out in my greenhouse, is a little more power hungry but not terrible on idle, and is nice to be able to configure changes to watering without going back inside or wrecking the zen by bringing phone.
Or get a used thin client (e. g. HP T620, T630, T640 or Dell Wyse 5070). Cost: ~40-100$. Biggest advantage: Passive cooling, i. e. they're absolutely quiet.
Wanna get something like this and a large SSD going forward. Make a silent NAS out of it, and have it in my bedroom without issues.
I have a Wyse 5010. Be careful with your SSD plans. Mine had an mSATA SSD. Luckily, after removing the chassis of a SATA SSD, and only keeping the board, it could fit in there.
Appreciate the warning!
The day i can fit the power of a computer capable of emulating the switch 1 in a gameboy shell will be glorious.
We must be pretty close on that by now, I can emulate a number of Switch 1 games surprisingly OK (not amazing, just OK) on my S21!
say what again?
You probably could with a phone
Do you mean the steam deck?
Deck is slightly bigger than Gameboy
Better than an old laptop, get a mini-pc like thinkcentre tiny. They're more upgradeable, space-efficient, power efficient, have better cooling
Power consumption is a massive reason to really not do that. Its cheap for a reason, its takes a shitload of power to be shit and you will pay more in energy than you save in hardware unless its only powered on for short periods of time - a server typically isn't.
This is actually something that applies to cheap products too. Was in Asda a little while ago and saw 2 LED bulbs with the same lumen rating. Cheaper one used 3w more and you only saved £1. Running it for 8 hours a day for a year would cost double that saving in electricity. For a server you are looking at almost £2 per watt each year. Does that ewaste look so good to you now?
Some things are absolutely worth getting second hand, but you really should be careful considering the power cost as well.
Quick edit: If you don't need it running 24/7, consider something like AWS too. I love selfhosting but if its not running much it might be cheaper to not bother buying hardware.
lowendtalk, hella cheap vps with plenty of resources for most self hosted apps, the issue with it is usually storage space but there are ways around that connecting your drives from elsewhere
Warning tho, hella shills too but you could literally make a post asking if certain companies on the site that have active threads are scams and get valid responses that don't get removed or anything so thats nice, like half of the ones I looked at were giving less resources than they claimed
Aren't laptops typically very energy efficient? Low consumption converts to high battery life, which is a priority for laptop hardware.
Some of them consume less than 10W.
Yes actually still sounds good. Raspberry Pis actually have quite high power draw compared to the performance they give. Like sure the number might be smallish but the performance they give and functionality they have is awful compared to even a mini PC which use similar power. Mini PCs btw are actually one of the best options in performance per watt and can still be cheap, plus they have upgradable RAM and storage. A Mac mini is more expensive but will thrash everything else in efficiency and performance per watt, although non-upgradable. Even slightly older laptops will only draw tens of watts when fully charged, vs a desktop or proper server that could pull 100W even at idle in some cases. Older laptops tended to be more upgradable too.
Please be specific rather than referring to 'raspberry pis' together. Different models have way different characteristics.
Are any of them actually that good in efficiency though? Like a Pi 5 is probably the best in performance per watt, but it also has the highest power consumption. Realistically you wouldn't self host on anything older than a Pi 4 anyway.
I can self host what I want on a pi zero. But, I do have some 30 years of experience so can probably do things some won't understand / bother with.
Bro please. I understand you can host very small stuff on less powerful Pis. I used to host some stuff on a Raspberry Pi model b myself. Stop tooting your own horn. You couldn't however host all the stuff I use or even most home labbers use on a Pi zero with modern software. I doubt it could run Jellyfin, an *arr stack, ollama, nextcloud, etc all at the same time. Probably you would also have to drop using containers which would be less secure and easy to deploy.
What's the performance per watt of a Pi Zero anyway? I am sure it's low power draw but I doubt it's actually efficient.
See here's the thing. Why would anyone want to host ALL the stuff on one pi? That is not what they were designed for. Ollama on a pi? Are you out of your mind? I'd run the biggest model I can on a modern gpu not some crappy old computer or pi....Right tool, right job. And why is dropping containers "less secure"? Do you mean "less cool"? Less easy to deploy? But you're not deploying it, you're installing it. You sound like a complete newb which is fine, but just take a step back from things and get some more experience. A pi is a tool for a purpose, not the end all. Using an old laptop is not going to save the world and arguing that it's just better than a pi (or similar alternative) is just dumb. Use a laptop for all I care, I'm not the boss of you.
As for an arr stack, I'm really disappointed with the software and don't use it and those who do have way too much time to set it up, and then make use of it!
There's lots of ways to make existing hardware more efficient at the cost of performance. Under-volting the CPU and RAM (or just putting them in "efficiency" mode) can probably save more electricity than you lose in generational improvements. Considering how much more powerful PCs are compared to SBCs, you'd probably still have better performance than an SBC. Also, a more powerful CPU that takes double the power but as a result can idle for more than 50% of the time would be more efficient than a less powerful CPU never idling.
There's a lot of other variables (like idle power draw, efficiency at various power levels, idle latency, etc), but in general I think your statement would be inaccurate at least 60% of the time.
Oh I am not saying specifically get a raspberry pi, personally looking at a bee-link N150 mini PC. It isn't even that much more expensive than the 16GB raspberry pi and as its x86 I can just run normal debian installs in proxmox.
The post is talking about RPis and other SBCs. Mini PCs are in a whole different category.
Yeah, but this is about self hosting and it's costs, so the comparison is relevant.
Yes it's relevant. I have been one of the people making it. However they didn't specificy what they were actually comparing in their first comment. So it ends up they are saying something false. Your average laptop could easily beat a raspberry pi in performance per watt.
A good "rule of thumb" to remember: if your electricity rates average (somewhere near) $0.11/kWh you can take the average power draw of a device in watts and that is equal to what it will cost to run that device 24-7 for 365 days.
So, if that cheap PC draws 50W more than an alternate solution, it's costing you $50 more per year to use it.
Some tasks are beyond any RasPi, but it's well worth evaluating if something like an N100 fanless mini-PC can handle it instead of loading up some Core i7 rig that's going to cost more to run in the first year than the N100 costs to buy.
Your energy is clearly a lot cheaper than mine then.
Well, the idea scales, if your energy is 0.33 Euro per kWh take the watts x 3 and that's your annual running cost.
This is generally not true. If you are using your laptop as a home server chances are it's going to be idling 99% of the time and laptops are generally pretty good in terms of idle power draw if you manage to disable the screen (or just disconnect it, take it off and find a way to repurpose it)
And in terms of environmental impact saving a laptop from landfill is definitely better since the majority of a computers impact is from the co2 emmissions from the manufacturing process. And this isn't taking into account the likely ethical considerations such as supporting terrible mining practices for resources like cobalt.
This is generally not true. A small server running on an old pi when idling will have hardly any draw. It will cost literally pennies to run for the whole year.
A rasperry pi idles at about 2 watts vs a laptop that idles at about 4 watts.
At $0.30/kwh (a very high price for electricity) you would save 5 dollars per year on electricity.
This laptop trades blows with the rasperry pi and costs half the price (55$ aud vs over 200$ aud for a brand new pi 5)
Even this second hand one costs 110$ aud which is twice the cost. With that cost of electricity it would take 11 years in order to break even.
And that's only if you consider monetary cost and not environmental cost.
But I MUST CONSUME MORE ELECTRONICS
That's not the point here. People probably do not need a pi 5. There are many other pi devices (and similar boards) with significantly less draw.
these shitty win8 laptops are surprisingly low power and efficient though.
I'm not taking electronics advice from someone who uses the term lappies.
Where I'm from those were 10$ and legal in Quebec.
Are you living on a space station? What is this shitload of power? A whole 60 watts? Are you rationing AA batteries to run your household?
What is it with the bullshit fanciful rationalizations people come up with to consume consume consume?
And that's 60W while charging. In idle with the screen off, low end laptops often consume as little as 2-3W. Which is not far off from a pi.
But I want to be cool and awesome! I want to constantly re-learn how to do basic things over and over because TECHNOLOGY!!!
https://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=23718473&cid=65450499
And I think China is evil and dumb... but I click "add to cart" on aliexpress in my sleep!
But I am deeply worried about totally renewable energy consumption by buying an endless stream of disposable baubles!
(Read above in some kind of sarcastic tone)
Some of us live off-grid and make every Watt-hour we consume. So it may be that one man's fanciful bullshit is another man's daily life. For context, this is my 2,461st day offgrid.
Over the last 30 days I've averaged 2.01kWh/day, or an average constant consumption of 84w. All in. And that's on the high end for folks in similar use cases. In this scenario adding in another 60w would be significant (ie, impossible for my rig during winter months).
As Sesame Street taught showed us it's a matter of perspective.
Um if you’re living with computers are you really „off the grid“ computers require the grid to be manufactured. If you’re off the grid because you worry about the way the worlds going and you think you’ll need to be off the grid to survive I wouldn’t make having access to computers part of the plan.
60w is like £120 a year, these costs add up to the point that low spec servers pretty much always cost more in energy than hardware. Of course it also depends on where you live and your energy rates.
You could buy a 20 year old server that is going to use 800w, or you could buy a mini PC that is probably more powerful and uses like 10-20w.
Then again, I used to live somewhere that energy was included in the rent so short of starting a bitcoin farm usage wouldn't really get noticed too much. In that case it would make sense to just go cheap hardware.
I'm glad I don't have these addictions people seem to have. "I need a computer to measure how much water my toilet uses!" "I need a computer in my refrigerator!" etc
We've passed the useful stage of computing, we are now in the "personal issues" phase.
Ewaste computers actually tend to be on par if not better than an RPi in power consumption these days. It might feel like a RPi should be more efficient given the size and USB power connector, but modern Pis consume a solid 10-20w while in use which is more or similar to most miniPCs (they idle at single digit watts now and can "race to sleep" more effectively than a Pi) while costing about the same and the Pi is far less upgradeable
That depends if the mini-PC is something in the Celeron / N100 family, or the Core i5/i7 family.
Should see an old 6th gen i5 mini PC on a power monitor. It's basically nothing!
Yeah, they've reversed that trend for sure.
The only caveat here is the fire-hazard non-removable lithium batteries.
'non-removable' lol
Not simple to remove. They can all be taken out.
But the fire risk is a very valid point. All laptops should indicate they should not be left alone when charging. While many do. Setting one up in a unobserved location to run permanently should be batteryless or Lifepo4 adapted. So laptops may not be best suited to this environment. A used thin client or other DC input option may be much easier. Or an old desktop if batts and not wanted.
Replacement is usually removing 6-10 screws and prying the case with a guitar pick or old credit card. There is most likely a disassembly video on youtube. Batteries from aliexpress or the like are usually cheap (although probably more expensive than the computer). Depending on the application, the "built-in UPS" can be nice.
but what will fix the fire hazard of the charger? how will you be able to keep it plugged in 24/7?
I do SMB support, so I have a pretty good idea of what people tend to do.
I haven't seen a PS brick catch fire (possible, OFC, but extremely rare in my opinion) i have seen a PC PSU catch fire, and because of the fan, it's fucking scsry, like a jet with the afterburner.
Laptop chargers are no fire hazards anymore than raspberry pi PSUs are. In fact probably the RPi parts are worse as they are built down to a cost.
I would assume that landfill laptop manufacturers are trying to minimize costs even harder on the charger.
but what timeframe do you mean with "anymore"? laptops made in this decade, or the last 10 years, or something else? there's plenty of old laptops that fitinto OPs category.
Probably for as long as raspberry pis have been around. There have been plenty of scares with phone chargers exploding, and that's what a raspberry pi is powered from. Laptop chargers haven't had many issues in the past decade or so.
I have heard less about phone chargers failing catastrophically. They also handle much less power (except the fancy ones), and I haven't seen a hot phone charger adapter yet, but plenty laptop chargers of which some were just very warm, and some so hot just on its outsides that it was uncomfortable to hold it in hand.
this is why I'm more worried about laptop chargers
This is, in my mind, one of the benefits of laptops over micro computers: integrated UPS. Even an old, degraded battery will probably get you a couple of hours with the screen off.
IME, power consumption is going to be worse overall, for any laptop likely to be in the recycle bin, it's probably double the consumption of an ARM SBC. The integrated UPS and usually decent power conditioning of the power supply saves you more money with a laptop. Plus, keyboard and screen for emergencies - I just generally expect that, over there life of a micro I'm going to have to drag out and plug in a spare keyboard, mouse, and monitor because something in a device, or an upgrade, or BIOS flash, is preventing a boot.
There are a lot of good reasons to use laptops instead of SBCs, if you don't mind the extra power draw and (as she says) don't have size requirements.
They make batteries for raspberry pi too you know.
No, I didn't. I don't use Pis, I have ODroids. Heck, they may sell batteries for ODroids, too.
For me, it wouldn't have made much difference because I have UPSes around the house serving things like routers, modems, and switches. And I do care about size and energy use. I'm only saying there are advantages to using laptops.
You can get little integrated LCD cases for Pis too, can't you? And maybe even a little fold-out keyboard. Congratulations! You've re-invented the laptop!
ODroids don't meet European legal hazard levels on poisonous fumes. I bought one back in the day and they explained they won't apply for the test because of "the cost"... not that it uses cheap solder that don't meet lead limits.
I didn't know this.
These things are removable with a screwdriver in most cases. If the battery isn't completely dead it's actually useful for backup power.
I had read about it on another thread, which was about using old smartphones as servers (they used Termux).
Those old lithium batteries, although sometimes seemingly healthy, can catch fire any time. Having them connected to the charger 24/7 is only making matters worse.
I wouldn't trust the battery of old devices. I would probably buy a used UPS (without battery) and slap a new battery to it. This would cost more, but it would allow me to also connect other important devices to it - like the router and some lights.
Yeah... no. Old laptops idle at around 50 °C.
That just means they become 100% efficient in winter!
Idk, heat pumps have become a lot more popular in recent years.
So do Raspberry Pi?
Get a slightly bigger heatsink.
my 20 year old pc runs at ~5°C above room temp under load
You really shouldn't be spending your days in a room at 45 °C.
you are joking, but my room actually feels like that.
I wish there was a convenient place to get these
I've thought about asking the folks at the local Free Geek about getting a laptop or two like this that I can mess around with. I had an old HP Stream 11 and I'm still disappointed that it died.
Also, Raspberry Pi first got popular because of the size and cost. Now it's popular because it's popular. Not hating on them, I think they're cool, but they're not cheap any more. Especially with the scalping.
Getting x86_64 based systems is going to mean much less headache. Unless you truly truly need the size I wouldn't consider getting a Pi or other SBC. Just go to literally any used marketplace (Facebook, Craigslist, etc) and get anything.
People say this, but they really are still cheap.
The original Raspberry Pi Model B launched for £22 in 2012. The entry level Raspberry Pi 5 is £46, but adjusted for inflation that's only £32 in 2012 money. So only £10 more expensive in real terms.
Raspberry Pi Zero 2 W is only £14.40, which is only £10 in 2012 money. Compare this to the original Raspberry Pi Model A, which launched for £16.
People look at the headline cost of the high end RPi 5s (£115 for the 16GB model, £76 for the 8GB), but fail to recognise that there was nothing comparable to these in the Raspberry Pi lineup before, and these are not the only models in the Raspberry Pi lineup now.
There was the supply shortage price spike, they really were stupid expensive then if you supported the hoarder/scalpers.
Since that has cleared... most of the Pi price increases (in inflation adjusted dollars) can be attributed to improved features like more RAM, or people acknowledging that having a good dedicated $20 power supply is preferable to dealing with the flakiness of that old phone charger you found under the bed.
Inflation adjustment doesn't really tell the whole story though, it's not like salaries have gone up by the same amount. Regardless, I don't like dealing with the Zero unless I specifically need something that tiny. It's just too annoying. Don't get me wrong! They're cool! I'm just saying unless I really need a Pi Zero I wouldn't wanna work with one. I'd rather work with x86_64 than Arm. Like even just getting Java working was really tricky on Zero. Much like a microcontroller has limitations for what you can run on them but they have other benefits, Zeros aren't really general purpose.
So yeah, dirt cheap used laptop for general purpose server beats out dirt cheap Pi in my book.
10£ more, or 50% more expensive?
Don't like the expensive version? Get a Zero 2 W which outspecs the original by a wide margin.
Sure, but the specs aren't directly comparable.
They also still manufacture the RPi 4, which starts at £33- which is £23 in 2012 money.
That's only true for the high-end Pi 5. Lower-powered models like the zero 2 are still cheap, and they're a lot easier to find than a few years ago.
Which part? Because the "it's not x86" is even more annoying to deal with on Pi Zero lol.
Pi is popular with me because it's time efficient. Meaning: when I am trying to get it to do something, it takes less of my time to make the thing actually happen on Pi hardware as compared with most of the other small / embedded alternatives. Notable recent exception: ESPHome on ESP32 hardware, but even there the more limited variation of Raspberry hardware makes it similar to those fruity phones, MP3 players and computers - since there are a limited number of variations, you can usually find information specific to EXACTLY your setup, instead of having to infer from something almost the same, but figure out little wrinkles here and there due to differences between what you are working with and what you are reading about on the internet.
raspberries were viable while those were cheap. I think I got a 3b (plus?) in pre-deficit years for like $25 second-hand AND I got some shitty case AND a microSD card AND it could run off of a somewhat normal USB phone charger. so using those instead of a 10 year old decommissioned desktop was an awesome value proposition.
nowadays, those devices are encroaching on trip-digits territory and the power adapter is like $30. the computing power you can buy for a third of that designates raspberries exclusively for niche use cases where footprint and power consumption are primary considerations.
not to mention fake Jason Statham just rubs me the wrong way, like all them "visionaries". he makes this sound like he's the head of Feed Africa or something, on a noble mission to save humanity and whatnot.
The Zero 2W is cheaper and pretty much the same spec as the Pi 3.
And for some (including me) that's our only computer (other than phone). I just can't afford anything, so all I have is a shitty laptop from 2010 that barely plays 1080p video. I deeply want something better, especially a steam deck, but doesn't look like that'll happen anytime soon (or ever).
And then you see people have steam decks that just sit there, unused, gathering dust.... fuck.
Consider buying used hardware from an office. Lots of places sell used gear for dirt cheap. A used office desktop with a used GPU from the last 3 years or so would be a massive upgrade without spending much.
Steam Deck is still a good deal for what it is though, but I wouldn't use it as a primary workstation.
You want a steam deck to replace your only computer?
Why not? especially when it's a laptop from 2010
They make a quite capable desktop machine when plugged in, with the benefit of portability, and definitely better than a 2010 laptop
The shitty 2010 laptop isn't disappearing
Honestly, if you're in the States I have a bunch of HP ProDesks that my wife would be very happy to see disappear from our basement (I bid on an auction I didn't expect to win lol). I'd happily send one for the cost of shipping
Only if you're running it at full load all the time and comparing that to a comparable number of raspberry pis it would take to do the same amount of work. Also, only if you live in a cold climate and the heat generated is not a concern and power is supplied by a renewable source so power isn't a concern.
It's low power that is still making arm small computers popular. It's impossible to get a pc down into the 2-5 Watt power consumption range and over time it's the electrical costs that add up. I would suggest the RPI5 is the thing to get because it's expensive for what it is and more performance is available from other options supported by armbian.
Mini PC with N200 and NVMe SSD uses around 7W when idling.
For a minimally higher power consumption you can have up to 32 GB of memory, more powerful CPU, and decent GPU for video transcoding purposes.
Yet a Mac Mini does exactly that. Or like any Intel N100 based mini PC or laptop. Those also have way better performance, IO, and software compatibility. Raspberry Pi's fill a certain niche, but efficiency isn't it. At least not anymore.
There are also a lot of mini PCs that are comparable in price to a Raspberry Pi 5 once you factor in the cost of a case, SD card, and power supply for the Pi.
Notable mention, amd64 chipsets are more widely supported than ARM.
That's only start up cost. What about ongoing 24/7 costs after 2 years?
The power usage will be a bit higher, but it will also have higher performance. They can have 2.5G ethernet and a couple of NVMe SSDs. The Raspberry Pi 5 only has one lane of PCIe 2.0, so it will be very bandwidth limited if you use a PCIe switch to connect a 2.5G NIC and an SSD.
Probably not much of a difference. These mini PCs can run at single digit wattage too and you won't be buying new SD cards every 6 months.
the 20 year old pc of my grandparents had a graphics card failure, i fixed it but tgey decided i should keep the pc and help them pick a new one (valid after 20 years ngl) now this PC runs debian and hosts my game servers and all
damn you all, now I impulse bought an old thin client for 30EUR :-)
but, fwiw: I mostly use RPi for my purposes, up to RPi4; RPi 5 I think missed the mark, with its active cooling requirement and power use. (and price...) the only use case where an i86 alternative is justified is my jellyfin setup (where realtime transcoding is needed).
As a Pi Hole, the Pi 5 doesn't require active cooling.
Now, I am running a separate Pi 5 with a HAILO 8 for Frigate monitoring of a bunch of video streams, and it does need a little air movement, so I built a box with a 200mm fan pulling through a filter and I just threw all my Pis in there along with the Frigate rig so they stay nice and cool... I'm thinking that I should probably switch Frigate over to a Pi 4 for the h.264 hardware decoder, but the 5 is working fine for my needs and endless tweaking gets boring...
You are probably right for something like a Pihole, which can easily run on a RPi 3 as well (I think I'm running it on a 3... maybe even a 2.) My fear is something like Jellyfin (which it is not suited for anyway, I know), combined with the fact that my stack of Pis is in my meter cabinet, so a fairly confined space with very little air movement, also passive. Running Jellyfin without transcoding has my Pi 5 running at just under 50 °C.
It's impressive what a gentle breeze will do - if you can get a fan on your cabinet it will help a lot.
I filter my air and positive pressure the cabinet so the dust doesn't build up (as fast).
I bought a dell latitude on eBay for a few bucks and run Debian on it. This one speaks to me.
You'll have no end of problems and won't know whether it's a hardware or software problem.
Damn straight. Another reason not to buy a pi.
I use old Mac Minis that were cycled out from a company and replaced. An e-waste laptop is still probably cheaper, but you can still find the older model Mac Minis fairly cheap too. I have 2 of them that sit vertically side-by-side in a small rack with my router stationed above them. They both run Elementary OS.
Here too. Free 2012 Mac Mini that's been servering away for a couple of years already 24/7 on UPS power. Gets a deserved smile every time I look at it :)
I'm looking at replacing my 2018 desktop machine (a Thinkcentre Tiny) soon with one of the new AMD 395 mini-pcs. When that happens, the Mac Mini will be retired...
I think mine are around the same year. Such great machines for random shit. I tried to run an AI cluster across them and it kinda struggled 😂. It was a fun experiment.
Low power and arm architecture are big differentiators between Pi and laptops.
I totally agree recycle laptops where possible, but they're generally noisier and less energy efficient plus the battery degrades over time and is a fire risk.
They're not necessairly a good fit for always-on server or service type uses comparef to a small board like Raspberry Pi. But a cheap or free second hand laptop is definitely good for tweaking, testing and trying our projects.
How many people keep up with this misconception RPis are ultra efficient? They are bargain basement SoCs. The power draw isn't that low (25W PSU), and the performance they deliver isn't great. They are all made using older process nodes and techniques that result in less efficient processors. Add those together and you will find they have less performance per watt than all modern laptops with the screen turned off, and less than most Mini PCs. Mini PCs and other SBCs are where it's at for efficient home labs. If you can find a Mac with Apple Silicon for cheap they are even better. Everyone in the home labbing community pretty much knows this by now. I struggle to understand why Lemmy hasn't got this through their brains. I think it's partially the miconception that ARM is always better, and partially down to people not understanding that low maximum power draw and efficiency are the same thing. Not even thinking about idle power or performance per watt.
Rockchip boards are way more efficient than Pis
Add use of gpio to reasons to use pie.
While gpio adaptors are available for pc. The software architecture is not as well rounded and documented.
So for any complex hardware project development. Gpio based SBCs are often essential.
So space, low power and gpio development.
Otherwise yep old laptop or even desktop can be cheaper and more able.
But overall. The wide software support and documentation for hardware connectivity is a bloody good reason to keep pie supported.
I'm setting 2 up to control the hot water and solar dump system on my shared little boat. As I want to link 12v Lifepo4 batt charging with the solar dump and visually impaired control for AC and diesel heating of the water.
Pies really are the best option to play with. While low power and easy to design a unique low vision interface.
Also UK boat safty. Is issuing warning about permanently connected li ion batts on boats. So it is likely setting up a laptop to manage this while not on the boat. Will be banned in the near future.
Only an issue for UK boating but worth considering the risks of leaving laptops to run when not observed.
I bet you could instead use an ESP32 for GPIO and just connect it remotely to whatever Pi alternative you use (if needed at all). Turning some switches on and off while monitoring input values doesn't sound very computationally intensive.
Yep that can work. But ignores all the well documented and supported development community comments I pointed to while also indicating other options exist.
As for.
You realise IO wise that describes your keyboard and mouse interaction on the most powerful gaming PCs.
It's what you do with the results that matters.
GPIO supports a fair bit more then the on and off input and output. It's slow compared to other systems. But has multiple serial protocols of differing types. Simple GUI displays can also be run via gpio connections. Low Res Lidar devices are available connected via the spi connections with all the data processed on that host PC.
So no gpio use can require all levels of processing power post connection. It is after all designed for experimentation and prototyping.
For my project. You clost to correct. I just use a simple GUI displays with xorg. So a pie 0 is plenty. And way lower power then the other options. It links to a pwm controller to power 2 12v 200w water tank heaters a relay for a 750w AC heater. Bluetooth connection to a BMS and solar MPPT. While operating multiple temp sensors measuring at different levels. And warning of legionaries risk. If the tank has not been over 65c in 14 days (actually 10 days but I'm over careful given the health status of my brother and I).
So much less then the tiny Pie 0 would not be able to cope but mainly due to the need for the vision impaired interface. Speaking functions dose not take much. But doing so without being unusably slow is about the limit of a pie 0.
Any photos of the boat and setup?
ATM the boat is being rebuilt inside. Replacing everything.
So the system is in bits. Hidden in the engine bay.
I have old pics of the boat before we regilt all the electrics etc. if it's the shape etc your interested in.
If your a Brit who knows the canals. Think small sprinter but with a flat hull. It's not actually a springer but same steel standards etc.
Not a Brit. But did live in UK for a number of years. So can complete the image I think!
I now have a stack of Thinkpads laying around. Right next to my two RPis 😂
I really should pick up another used thinkpad.... I've got one for my wife, one for me for work, and I would really like to have a personal in the mix to make my life easier.
Right? I made the realization a while ago that refurbished mini PCs are a way better fit for most of my homelab needs.
Sure, if power consumption is your #1 priority then you'd want some ARM solution. But for my use cases, I've found myself fighting with software support and the relatively low computational power of even the newer RPis.
Also, T-series Intel chips (the low power ones) have pretty good idle power consumption and don't spin up the fan too much given their lower power. And a lot of uses cases require sticking a fan and heat sinks on an RPi so you lose the quietness benefit.
Also also, you (still?) need proprietary blobs to use a bunch of the hardware on RPis. You can go full open source on a regular old PC.
Look for refurbished elitedesk g5, it runs debian magnificantly! I splurged a bit on the memory and ssd and have a quite nice desktop (developer).
this is the way
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unless you buy really stupidly, every single of those points is not true.
I always prefer getting an Hp 600 g5 for $100 off eBay, you get a Intel 9500, can go to 64gb of ram, and idle at a few watts
Alternative. Cheap android box and coreelec.
You can have them for about 20 bucks. Have minimal power consumption. And small power factor. They also have ARM architecture.
They are good for low power applications.
Too late...
I'm sure silicon valley are stepping on each other, vying to get their hands on these super cheap laptops for their 24/7 AI training.
They aren't very useful for much besides hobby projects. Modern hardware is more energy efficient and will be cheaper in the long run compared to anything that would be considered e-waste. The only advantage an old laptop has is the initial cost, so it makes sense for a small home server.
Yeah... I'm not going to stick a clunky old laptop on top of my bookshelf and have it run 24/7 as my PiHole. My Pi Zero 2 W is far more appropriate.
I agree that the Zero is up to the task, but I prefer a wired connection for my home DNS/DHCP server and if I understand correctly the Pi5 has better wired ethernet than its predecessors... Yeah, utilization is laughable, but there's something to be said for reduced lag time too:
I have never felt the need to have a wired connection for my DNS/DHCP, since such a trivial amount of data exchanges hands. The quality of the wired connection if it had one would similarly have negligible impact, surely.
For me it's not about the bandwidth, it's about the lag and reliability. I have had strong WiFi connections flake out a lot more than wired connections.
Also, I just prefer to not have 100+ WiFi devices kicking around my network when more than half of them could be wired, or on another protocol like Zigbee.
I guess I am pretty far from saturating my WiFi in any way, the removal of cables with little to no impact on connectivity was far more of a priority for me. I have never noticed a WiFi related outage or performance loss.
My WiFi routers have historically struggled a bit, I've got a decent one now, but even it is slow to manage the DHCP lists for fixed assignments by MAC address.
I will say this: we had a big lightning strike a few years back and it conducted into the house via the internet cable, then spread via the ethernet cables taking out everything that was wired (over $7K in damage) - devices connected only by power and WiFi were mostly spared.
No reason why a laptop wouldn't work though.
I mean, a lot of things would work, I could power it all with potato batteries if I had enough. The Pi Zero 2 W only cost ~£15 anyway.
But... that's so uncool...
I should have rebuilt an old coffee maker in to a Pi Hole instead. I'm such a rube.
Or any compact pc like gigabyte brix, nucs, lenovos , etc. you can get those for 70-200 on ebay and they are amazing for running any homelab projects, including stream services like jellyfin with hardware decoding.
Its all fun and games until the power bill arrives. Performance per watt is important, please look at that first. Don't be me.
Some are talking about power consumption in this thread and I've had similar ideas. Gone are the days where I can run a beefy spec'd desktop in good conscience, it's just such a resource hog. I have a laptop that stays in hibernate mostly. My other idea for a low power consumption home computer was to get a Le Potato single board and pair that with an e-ink monitor (there's some really nice ones out there) which I think was sitting at maaaaybe ~5kwh. I think the more we can limit our power consumption, the better, all that electricty directy translates into coal being burned and additional CO2 being created. I'm no luddite, but it has impacted how I consume media which is now very mindful of the impact watching a few episodes/playing a couple hours of games versus just one or two hours of content on any given day.
I personally needed the Pi for its Arm architecture.
Depending on the specs, I might be paying more for those, even used, than a SBC. The joys of Brazilian tech markets...
I dislike posts like this. Technology moves quickly. PIs are great for hobby electronics where you need a little computer. Want a cheap computer to run a few things 24/7 and know what you're doing? Pi it is. You don't need to run containers on a pi because you have the skills to install the dependencies manually. They cost pennies to run 24/7.
I think of pis as beefed-up calculators. I have made lots of money using a pi zero running code I needed to run 24/7. Code I developed myself.
Having an old laptop with outdated parts taking up lots of space, weighing a lot, and having components like fans, keyboard, and mousepad most-likely soon dying and needing replacing is an additional concern you don't want.
Someone below saying use an old laptop if you're living with parents and don't pay the electricity bill is a bit lame. Do your part for the world. Someone will be paying for it.
Ultimately, use what you want but if you're just starting with servers, use a virtual machine on your computer and log in to it. You can dick about with it as much as you want, and reset back to a working state in seconds.
Yeah, theres a lot of old old laptops which make no sense to run. But there's a growing crop of more recent used devices that are only being sold off because they don't support Windows 11, and the power efficiency story changes there. The OOP mentions "8.1 lappies"; my main laptop has a 15W 8th gen which is only in the last year starting to feel less appropriate for desktop use. (And honestly, a RAM and storage bump will probably get me another couple years.)
For environmental concerns, youve got to tax new devices with manufacturing costs as well.
100% agree about VMs though.
Laptops don't even use that much power. You guys are really not into home labbing or as good with tech as you think you are lol. Lots of people run older real servers and desktops as home servers. They use way more power than laptops. Raspberry Pis sound good but use progressively more power in each generation, and still struggle to compete with mini PCs and even older laptops in performance. They also never had good performance per watt. In performance per watt basically nothing beats a Mac Mini, though other mini PCs are also good. Laptops aren't bad in energy efficiency either. They are literally designed to run on battery so have as little idle draw as possible. They would be comparable to a mini PC if you turn off the display.
Edit: Modern RPis apparently use 25W, which is firmly in the territory of what a laptop would use when not running the screen or charging the battery.
Rpi uses 25watts? My old acer 6th gen laptop has a 15watt TDP and remains around 8watts 24/7 even with my services and without disconnecting the internals. My 8th gen laptop pulls 6watts with the screen on. People here saying older laptops arent a good choice are insane considering the ~$100-300 diffrence between an ewaste laptop and dedicated minipc + backup power bank (laptops have internal batterys you can easily replace when they go bad)
yeah even the best overheating overpowered gaming laptops have way lower power draw compared to your average desktop? It's really not that high or crazy to use an old laptop instead of buying a pi lol.
Jesus 25W is about what a miniPC would consume at a constant 30-50% load!
I think this really depends on the model they're eyeballing because the Pi5 is frankly ridiculous for the price and has absurd power requirements (5V5A USB?). I wouldn't recommend one of these unless you have a specific need like a certain hat or the GPIO pins. You can get a Dell micro Optiplex for less money and have a full fledged i5 or i7 processor with similar power usage.
Plus the RPi Foundation exposed themselves as the greedy bastards they are during COVID which is yet another reason to turn your back on them.
For something like a Pi Zero, maybe go for it, but there are similar devices out there from other companies too.
I picked up a used 2018 Fujitsu office PC with an i5-7500 for $60 (from a physical recycle shop, with a 14 day warranty) and it draws 15W idle. Way better value than a Pi (once you've added case, cooling, PSU etc) for running home server stuff.
A Pi still kills for "Arduino plus plus" use cases where you need the size, GPIO or can optimize the heck out of power usage on a battery.
It's even worth pointing out you can disable various parts of the pi so it uses / needs even less juice.
Pi's are ARM-based, which still to this day limits the scope of their applicability.
Also, you should absolutely inspect a laptop before buying. Many, if not most, of old laptops will run just fine for the next few years.
Untrue.
Until the battery needs replacing, costing more than a pi, one key on the keyboard dies, etc.
Which part?
Do you need any of that? You can remove the battery and keep it plugged, and use it as a server to which you connect over SSH, with an added benefit of having local access if you actually need it.
ARM life!
I had the accounting self hosted web app on it until I was too lazy for accounting and now I am in so called hot water and must make bunch of shit up using mathematical apparatus
But it worked really well for a year or so