🌍🧑🚀🔫🧑🚀 Always have been. That's why conservatives constantly try to make it harder to vote - the more people vote, the more left wing politicians win. Because the majority of people agree with left wing ideals.
If blue fucking showed up at the boxes more often. (Even just 25% of the people registered as blue) nearly all government seats would flip and change would actually happen for the better. Instead left is actually center and right is facist.
Not necessarily true. People with left wing beliefs often vote for right wing candidates because the only information they have is their tiktok feeds and fox news playing at home.
No, it is necessarily true, according to the data lol. The higher the voter turnout, the more left wing candidates win. I don't doubt that what you say is true at some level, but it doesn't happen enough to affect the trend of higher voter turnout = more left wing wins.
100%. Republicans have been blatantly against the will of the people, and can only maintain power through gerrymandering and straight up rigging elections. We are the majority by a long shot. The last election was likely rigged, and the heritage foundation, Trump, and Putin are working on the business plot 2. We have to do everything possible to stop it.
They remove the right to vote from our poor, our people of color, our citizens who have made mistakes but paid their debts to society, they remove polling places, making people wait hours and hours standing in lines to vote, giving them water is illegal, they purge voter roles right before elections…. And so so many more things. So many Americans don’t vote because they can’t because our right wing government has put so many roadblocks in the way.
Because most Americans have knee-jerk reactions to labels as opposed to policies. Like how everyone supports all the protections Obamacare provides, but how they all want to get rid of Obamacare.
Others have commented valid points but I also wanted to bring up propaganda;
A lot of people are unwilling or even unable (i.e. there is only one tv in the house and you don’t get to control the remote most of the time) to get their news from sources that aren’t constantly telling them that Democrats are out to get them and 2SLGBTQIA+ are the enemy and that if they just vote for (wealthy conservative) then all their problems will be solved overnight. Couple that with an education system that has failed to give people the critical thinking skills to ask what trans folk have to do with the economy and you get the 2024 election.
To make you more hopeful, they have to constantly fight to keep these systems of oppression in place. We win if/when this stops. All we have to do is keep fighting them. Make them work to oppress us, and it'll crumble.
Because while a lot of Americans support a lot of left wing positions, there are no major left wing parties, and a very small number of politicians who run for national or statewide office who actually take action to further left wing policies. There's Bernie Sanders, who isn't a member of a large party. AOC, and a few others qualify, but being a small proportion of those running, they're a small proportion of those elected, and have relatively little actual influence.
Ideas neither major party supports are basically impossible to see happen.
As others pointed out, there's major structural issues. There's also issues with apathy and people buying into the anti-electoralism/accelerationism con with religious ferver.
You're not wrong but, that's really the trap that many of us on the Left hand fallen for. It takes a long time to build things and make positive changes in the face of resistance from moneyed interests. Leftists refusing to participate in every election, including primaries, is a good part of how we got here in the first place. Non-voters are the largest bloc and, with surveys consistently showing Left-of-Center policies to be popular with the populace overall, it's safe to assume that the Overton window could be dragged to a better place if they bothered to participate and participate consistently in a calculated manner.
It is absolutely infuriating, indeed, to see all efforts being for nought, though. In less than a year, almost a century of progress has been undone and that would not have been possible if people had been voting stategically. At this point, I'm certain that things will not get appreciably better in my lifetime.
You've got extremely valid feelings. Mine are quite similar. I do find myself asking "what's the fucking point?" far more often than I'd like.
Rather like the classic "what's the meaning of life?", I don't think that anyone can answer that for anyone else. For me, it's a love of my fellow human beings and belief that, based upon historical evidence, authoritarianism's grip on society always crumbles. It might take a World War, or it may take centuries of insurgency, but it is inevitable. In order for that to happen, people need to experience kindness and empathy. And people need to be willing to be builders, rather than just violent fighters (every society founded in violence and bloodshed has been vulnerable to authoritarians coopting the movement). So, I keep pushing because it might help others when I'm gone. Hell, maybe it will help lead to the cultural and psychological changes necessary to approach the anarchic society of my ideals (I don't think I'll ever directly have that much influence or desire it but every small bit helps).
And there's also spite. Authoritarians of all flavors are fundamentally cruel douchebags and the current ones are exceptionally stupid to boot (and revel in their anti-intellectualism). Continued resistance and standing up for people and showing them kindness really gets under their skin and I'm a big fan of that.
Politics is dumb and people are terrible. I want to leave the planet.
Yup. Me too buddy. Me too.
I might suggest, if you're able, looking about for local (non-political) nonprofit orgs to see if there are any that really align with what you think is important. Helping others in a tangible manner can really help to stave off apathy.
Money, Propaganda, Tribalism, an undemocratic voting system...
Further, the uneveness of Power is gigantic: billionaires have way much power than common people, who are only powerful if together in large numbers and that's incredibly hard to make happen in a structured way with everybody aligned in the same way compared with what a single billionaire can do if they feel like spending $100 million, and the entire system is set up against people organising in such a way - notice how the biggest demonstration ever in the US, the George Floyd protests, achieved pretty much nothing at all, and the police in the US is still a force of Injustice rather than Justice.
The vast majority of people are either played like fiddles or made to feel impotent and hence just turn of from politics and just live day to day.
My take is that there are a lot of Left people who won't vote for anyone except a candidate they support 100%. Hilary Clinton should have destroyed Trump. Those people ignore the simple truth that any time any GOP gets elected the whole country moves to the right.
There are two sides. The Right and everyone else. The Right wins because they stay on topic and vote. Until the rest of us fall in line like they do, they'll keep on winning. Show me where I'm wrong.
There is an evil witch that lives underground in the Moon and who is mind-controlling non-Rightwing votes in the US so that they don't vote. Show me were I'm wrong.
The easiest thing in the World is to come up with a wild-ass theory without backing it with any evidence and then demanding others disprove it - I do believe that's even a 4chan special.
Donald Trump won the election in 2016 over Hilary Clinton. How much more evidence do you need that people should have done more to defeat Donald and the GOP?
You're wrong by blaming the fictional non voting left for all your woes. Don't be stupid.
It's very simple. 36% of people didn't vote on average. What percent of those people are leftists? If you don't have that information, then you're making shit up and demanding other people prove it for you.
Also, if memory serves, the right wing group the 3 percenters got their name because it only took 3% of the population to initiate change at some historical event.
Ergo, it doesn’t take that many people to get out and change the nation, but ffs you got to get out
It seems like the ' in the word "don't" somehow fell down and landed on the floor right after the word "people" in your last sentence. Might wanna pick it up and place it where it belongs.
Can you provide examples? From what I gather, 1 cops are still killing people, 2 we're still speeding towards climate catastrophe, 3 Trump is still in power, 4 Poverty and wealth disparity is getting worse, 5 Women in many walks of life are still second class citizens.
Unless the lasting impact you mean is one step forwards three steps backwards.
Do you think that the needle has moved in a positive direction since these protests? Even if it feels like only a few millimetres?
Starting from the bottom of this list:
5. There's more women in the workforce than ever before https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/75-006-x/2022001/article/00009-eng.htm
4. We've seen a drop in poverty since 2017 (but it's climbing back up!) https://www160.statcan.gc.ca/prosperity-prosperite/poverty-pauvrete-eng.htm
3. As a direct response to Trump, Canada elected a Centre-Left Prime Minister in Marl Carney's Liberals when the election was decidedly going to be a Rightwing landslide with the Poilievre's Conservatives.
2. Green, renewable energy has never been more popular.
1. There have been significant reforms since the George Floyd protests. Some cops have seen prison time, or lost their jobs entirely.
That's not to say our job is done and everything is a utopia now - we still have a lot of work to do. However, we do need to acknowledge when things have moved in a good direction or we'll be overwhelmed by the bad and lose hope.
You've gotta see some of the good through all the shitty headlines that want to make you click and feel bad.
The comment told me to take a guess so I did although my answer was intentionally wrong because I thought my questions answer was obvious. None of the things listed have remained relevant
Intense violent changes are more suited for writing stories about than gradual non-violent changes. I'm not saying gradual non-violent changes is what US needs right now, but your statement is false and I think you should stop instigating violence in this thread.
The United States was created by the Revolutionary War.
We live in a country that only exists because of violence. We celebrate and honor this violence every year on July 4 (and on Memorial Day and Veterans Day)
Clearly we as a nation deeply believe in the transformative power of violence. It's literally what it means to be an American.
I was about to say the list was incomplete as several million attended the Iraq war protests, but it turns out that was global and only a few hundred k Americans bothered to protest the invasion of Iraq based on manufactured propaganda.
The post 9/11 bloodthirsty hysteria, "you're either with us or against us" dissonance, religious nationalism, and ignorant patriotism is what made me believe the US would become an authoritarian dictatorship in my lifetime. Great job teenage me. I hate it.
A lot of people forget the shear bloodlust in the USA after 9/11 that lasted for years.
When people compare the Vietnam and Iraq Wars, a lot of people forget there was a large chunk of the country who were rabidly pro Iraq War while there wasn't an equivalent base for the Vietnam War.
It felt like everyone was like you were either 1000% on board or you were casually on board cause you weren’t “into politics” but trying to find likeminded people who opposed it felt impossible to me. I was 16 when 9/11 happened and shortly after was when I stoped standing for the anthem or saluting the flag in the morning and I was the only kid in my highschool of 1,800 kids to do that and wow I got SO MUCH hate for it
This is online discourse in general with Americans. Nuance is impossible, it's all "you're either with us or against us", for example when discussing China. Doesn't even have to be something political, just any charged argument at a point in time.
Must be a coincidence that Lemmy was much more relaxed and welcoming when there were fewer Americans here in the beginning, you could even read news about European countries, now all we get is American politics spam.
I was 16 when 9/11 happened and I was a pretty tuned in kid who spoke up about the issues I had with it, how horrible the patriot act was, all sorts of things and I can absolutely attest the response was always extremely hostile and cutting, filled with personal attacks about how moronic I was, now naive and of course because I’m female I’m inherently too stupid to hold a conversation about this so just shout me down so I will shut my stupid girl mouth and sit down. I’ve never changed my mind, why would I? And you know what, I still get attacked in exactly the same ways but at least the “you’re a terrorist for not supporting the Iraq war” has died down
That was the first overt demonstration that American news outlets were captured by jingoist propaganda. But back then pointing out that media coverage differed from literal experienced reality got you labeled as a terrorist kook.
A general strike would be devastating. But we ain't there yet.
Not that I don't love the idea. It requires a robust support network. Start building a small local community that can be self sufficient. Grow food. Make tools. Sell things to neighboring communities.
The owners will still expect rent during a general strike. We have the numbers, they have the funds to we wait us out. They'll do everything they can to make it hurt us more than them.
It sucks, but we aren't getting rid of the fascists over the weekend. They're in this for the long haul, and we need to be strategic about when and how we proceed. A general strike is a HUGE offensive in the fight, and it needs to be planned well. If we just mass buy shit before and after it doesn't do anything.
Targeted boycotts are similar. They need to be strategic in their timing. Refusing to shop on Amazon for a week doesn't do anything if we just go back to purchasing from them a week later. But what we can do is time it so it hits right before a fiscal quarter. That way it impacts the stock price and doesn't fully bounce back until the following quarterly report.
Cool. I just hope your leaders take the hint. Maybe now that they're getting directly threatened they'll show their true colours. Either they stand up for themselves as they see their colleagues start to get attacked (at events or in their own homes), or they cower and come to heel. (Sadly, I have little faith most politicians in most countries these days will do much if it's not their own hides at risk.)
Incidentally, something weird is going on with that list. I'm not sure how the ordering works but much more important, it says only "500,000" for the protests over George Floyd even though one of the references says 15-26 million over the entire course of that movement.
This isn't the first large nationwide protest of his second term and it won't be the last. For instance, the Hands Off ones in April were number 6 on that list. They're getting larger and there is already planning for the next nationwide ones. Or more broadly, here's the cumulative number of protests including smaller ones too
Without huge media buy in, a billion people is just a number they throw out. I don’t see any change from the number one protest on the list. I don’t think protests are working, even as i still go to them.
Yeah I'm afraid the US and all its allies are marching straight into another set of wars and the consequences they'll bring. Apparently we're all the baddies now
It feels good to know that lots of other Americans care about what's going on. I don't know if we're going to make it but I felt like part of a country out there and I hope we figure it out.
Less to me. There are families being kidnapped, seperated, and sent to death camps, and the respinding protests outside of LA were a two hour march on a weekend.
Not that poster, but judging by what the largest protests in the US ever - the George Floyd protests - achieved when it comes to police violence in the US (it's the same or worse now), in the present age in the US merelly coming out and walking for a bit in your own time while holding a board up doesn't seem to achieve anything.
Think of it from the point of view of the Political and Money "elites" in the US: they get zero direct negative impact from the riff-raff in their own time doing a big march against the elite's puppet mango emperor, and there is no single Historical instance in the US were the lower classes rebelled against the upper classes and properly fucked them up, so the masses marching isn't even a warning of increasing risk for them - they control the entire political system in the US and make sure whomever is in a position to get elected for a position of political power is always in their pocket, and do not fear the desinfranchised population because they never ever moved against them.
The murder of the CEO of UnitedHealthcare by a single person seems to have achieved more in terms of scaring the powerful than even the millions that came out demonstrating against the police killing of George Floyd.
(I bet that in a place like France, still today the masses coming out even if doing nothing but marching and holding some boards, are cause for concern amongst the "elites")
I actually saw something quite similar in the UK when I lived there: the powerful just didn't care because even large numbers of people doing some polite marching did not damage the interest of the elites and because they had no reason to be concerned with their personal safety because the plebes had never actually rebelled against the upper classes.
That said this situation in the US is even less concerning for the elites because the crowds are so firmly focused in the puppet and disregarding the puppet masters, that even very indirectly there is zero risk for the true powers.
Maybe as some other poster suggested, a general strike would be more effective.
Protests aren't about the Political and Money "elites" as you put it because they don't care no matter what.
You think they'd give a shit if what is happening in LA is happening everywhere? They're like cockroaches that will skitter into hiding until it's safe to come out and monopolize on the ruin.
Protests are about galvanizing support and building unity among the populace. The US has been so divided for so long and that division has been manipulated and grown to benefits those "elites".
I do think a general strike may be effective but it's unrealistic. A nationwide general strike would require massive financial and material support. Where will that come from?
They work on a smaller, union scale because they're supported by the union and outside supporters that are not on strike. They work in other countries that have the social programs in place to support the people which is something the US does not have.
I keep seeing this repeated comparison to France but let's look at that. France is a country a little smaller than the state of Texas with an adult population only slightly more than the total population of California.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's a little easier to coordinate a general strike in a country with 1/6 the population of the US spread across an area 1/15 the size of the US.
Protests in the US are getting bigger and more widespread but it's like a slow wave, it takes time to build.
Look, it can totally seen how the protests give hope to others by showing them that "they're far from alone in their concerns" and doing so in a way which is independent of mainstream political parties (which is good, since in my experience when political parties capture protests, they use such movements for their own personal good, in the process weakening the original movement).
In fact I totally approve of the protests and (even though I'm not American) I'm happy with just how big they were because maybe American has enough good people to make it a better country in the World stage (plus, frankly, I have some American acquaintances from minorities and don't want to see them suffer).
What I fear is that people here in Lemmy are crazily over-celebrating the protest as some kind of ending in itself when it's at best a beginning, and not even the beginning of the end but the beginning of the beginning.
If these protests aren't leveraged to organize grassroots movements to start doing things like guerrilla (in the marketing sense, rather than violent sense) campaigns to oust the crooked politicians no matter what their party is and weaken the influence of Money in politics, they're worthless, same as the George Floyd protests ended up being worthless because they didn't led to any organized follow through to force politicians to restructure policing in America.
So my point is that people need to keep their eye on the long term solution for America's problems, and that doesn't stop with kicking Trump out, it requires a far deeper cleanup of the American political system and addressing the problems of common Americans so that another guy like Trump (or, more likely, worse) doesn't get eventually get in power after Trump is out.
Trump is not the disease, he's a symptom, so merely Trump out isn't going to cure it.
So my point is that people need to keep their eye on the long term solution for America's problems, and that doesn't stop with kicking Trump out, it requires a far deeper cleanup of the American political system and addressing the problems of common Americans so that another guy like Trump (or, more likely, worse) doesn't get eventually get in power after Trump is out.
Denigrating the effort to date doesn't do anything to further your point. Instead it serves to quell support and push a negative outlook and view of protesting.
Offering support, encouragement and advocating for sustained effort would.
You mentioned the George Floyd protests and said, in relation to that, "merelly coming out and walking for a bit in your own time while holding a board up doesn’t seem to achieve anything" but that's not true.
During and immediately after George Floyd the protest effected a lot of change but then the protests stopped, complacency set in.
Trump is not the disease, he's a symptom, so merely Trump out isn't going to cure it.
No, the cure is sustained effort. The problems in the US have been building and evolving for decades, if not longer, and they'll take at least that long to get a handle on.
Maybe a protest that goes longer than 2 hours, on a weekend, where everyone dispereses and goes back home to watch the game? Maybe one that causes actual resistence and pushback? Not one that amounts to a cumminity day in the park?
I'd like an Earth Day of the week. Day of the week for a bunch of progressive agendas would be cool. You've got Fight Fash Friday, obviously Saturday is Gay, Sunday Earth Day like don't buy anything and maybe sabotage something? Monday is probably international worker solidarity. Etc.
7 out of top 10 during Trump's presidential terms. My take is that civil duty to protest is stronger than voting for non-Republicans, maybe if elections were on saturdays instead of tuesdays...
Exactly. Theyre not mutually exclusive. There is a lnown issue with working class people not being able to take time off on tuesdays to go vote. If elections were saturdays, maybe there would be a better turn out.
I feel like this argument doesnt hold as much water as it used to with how easy it is to vote by mail or use early voting. At least in the 3 locations ive been for the last presidential election
Oh, nuh-uh!
FOX News said it was a lightly attended failure. Who am I gonna believe, FOX:News or every local news sorce, that actually was there, in the country?
I keep seeing this, and I don't disagree, but what exactly is gonna change? Some rich people get slightly less rich, they'll still own most of our government. Our current admin clearly doesn't care about public opinion.
All the other benefits of a non-violent protest aside, there's also immense value is reminding people that they're not as singular in their viewpoint as they feel.
For a lot of people, it's been very easy to feel like everyone else must be in board with this.
I'm not sure what you're looking for to codify the implicit threat. A couple million people calling you a king at an event called "no kings day" in a country whose founding narrative is "violently rebel against kings" seems pretty implicit to me.
Also, I just realized that there's a red coat/red hat parallel I haven't seen leveraged yet that has a lot of potential.
there's also immense value is reminding people that they're not as singular in their viewpoint as they feel.
This destroys the narrative of the protested party. They cannot convincingly talk about 'a few misguided people disagreeing' when you see so many others who feel like you. Even if nothing would be achieved by the protest, this is an immensely powerful confirmation of an individuals beliefs. 100% agree.
They don't have "a" narrative that can be refuted. Any narrative that they present is facile and can be changed in mid sentence. Addressing the things they say is a waste of effort, even as counter-propaganda. It costs them orders of magnitude less to spread bullshit than it costs you to spread the antidote. This is just another way that they get you.
I don't mean to devalue organizing and peaceful protest, but the benefits are what it does to us, not what it does to them.
I was trying to say that. Seeing others puts a 'narrative' that is different from theirs in your own head, because you see with your own eyes. Everybody still needs to adress all incoming information, it's not always apparent it is a false story.
Showing up isn't arguing against them, it's sending a message to other people (amongst other things).
Arguing with fascists is pointless. Showing that not everyone agrees with them is different though, and has value. They may not have a singular static narrative, but they rely on the perception that dissent is a minority position.
Getting millions of Americans to go out and essentially shout "F U Donald" is a little bit more than a hang. And is potentially much more effective than a riot or occupy wall street.
America is still a democracy, in that all the roads to power require you to get folk to show up and vote for you.
Alright, so let's say trump is gone, what replaces him? Business as usual republicans who were all on board with his policies but didn't like how boisterous he was. Democrats are all too happy to play along, fellating war criminals like dick cheney and george bush. America is a representative democracy where you vote on which representative will represent billionaires for you.
I hope these protests develop into something more, but realistically I can only anticipate them being used as political points for democrats during their donation drives to raise tons of money to promote billionaire ass-kissers. Things will continue to get worse and then the next villain of the week will appear as the conduit to do all the bad things billionaires want. We'll be told again all we need to do is get rid of this next villain too and then things will be fine, but then the cycle repeats as things continue to just get worse.
That is exactly why the midterms will be so important, not to mention the next presidential election. We need to keep the momentum going for a blue wave, and this protest may have helped with that.
When that fails, when Democrats lose voting rights, when Trump pardons the Minnesota assassin to effectively legalize political violence against MAGA's enemies, when all peaceful options for democracy have been exhausted, then let's talk about the violent revolution. Until then, there's no reason to be a buzzkill about this protest.
The fact that No Kings was nonviolent was perfect, for now, because trying to riot or a coup would have just enabled MAGA to justify state-sanctioned violence of their own.
Can I ask what you're doing to act? I don't mean it as a gotcha question, I'm actually curious. Because I don't know what the heck to do other than protest and vote.
It's incredible that millions of people showed up and pretty much none of them feel for Donald Trump's trap that would have, to the MAGA Republicans, justified martial law and the suspension of liberties.
I'm pretty solidly convinced the protest was a good thing and that we won this battle.
Wikipedia is weird. In an article that lists the largest protests that have occurred in the United States, they still feel the need to tell you that each one of these protests, that are on a list of protests that occurred in the United States, in fact occurred in the United States.
I get being afraid of going to a protest considering we have police literally saying they’ll just kill people, but that doesn’t mean you can’t get involved with those organizing the protests. See if you can get involved with the organizers of your local protests and ask them what they need for the protests. After all, those signs you see people carrying didn’t make themselves. At the very least you can call your reps and make your voice heard. Even if your reps are dems, make it clear that you want real action, not just talk. You could also talk to the people around you: at work, at the store, family members, etc. Encourage them to call their reps. If your reps aren’t actively making things worse or letting things get worse by doing nothing but fundraise (so most reps) then see if there are efforts to primary any of them and encourage everyone you know to vote in the primaries too
Like I said, I understand being afraid to go to a protest. I am too. But you have to remember that if we don’t stop Trump and a full blown fascist takeover, then things will be much, much worse and much, much harder to change
You'll only be scared before you go to the protest. Once you're there you'll be fine. The vibe on the ground at every protest I've been to is great and there's a real feeling of camaraderie and support from your community. There is some risk, yes. It's probably still safer than crossing the street.
wear a mask and dark shades to stay anonymous and stand in quietly in back then. the trick is numbers. you don't have to heft a sign and chant slogans and be a spectacle if you don't want to, you can just fill space and it will still help.
I've gone to protests and stayed near the edge/outskirts so I can feel the vibe and keep an eye out to leave if it feels bad at all. You could do that if you wanted to try it out. I think massive popular protests are usually fine, it's the smaller ones that are more risky IMO.
You guys think that merely walking around in your own time holding up a board and shouting a bit, all focused on the mango puppet instead of the puppet masters, is going to change anything given that there is no single Historical event in the US ever of the lower classes rebelling against and deposit the upper classes (even the Revolution was literally the American plebs led by the American upper class fighting against the English plebs controlled by the English upper class)?!
The murder of the CEO of UnitedHealthcare had more impact, if only temporary because it wasn't followed by more similar murders.
Even millions of people marching and shouting a bit (and so polite that they do it in their own time) will cause no fear for the elites because that's in no way a warning that the heads of the elites will soon start getting separated from their shoulders if nothing changes.
You need at the very least a General Strike and/or targetting the economic and propaganda interests of the elites (trashing the TV studios of certain channels or certain newspapers would send a powerful message).
I mean, just notice the impact on police violence of the greatest demonstrations in the US - the George Floyd protests: nothing or even worse than nothing as the pigs have never been this violent.
Getting average people to the point that they are ready to do something like a general strike is a process.
Most people don't even want to have to go to a protest.
But going to a protests is like anteing up in poker -- it is mentally anchoring people as in the game and publicly taking a side.
And yeah - the fucks in power are going to say "bet".
So now millions of people who are not where we already are, who have not wrestles with this and avoided it as long as they can - they are starting to ask, "ok, what do we actually have to risk to change this? What am I willing to do?"
Will we get enough people actually engaged enough for a general strike? I have no idea.
But I know it won't happen without giving people a ramp-up that includes things like the protest this weekend.
I'm not American. If I went there to lead the revolution I would end up in El Salvador.
I did, however, got involved in politics in two countries I live in and did a lot of campaigning for them, so I've actually done the deed as far as I could rather than merely talk about it, and did so further than just demonstrations.
Demonstrations are nice as a way for people to know that they're far from alone in their concerns, but they're worthless if not leveraged into helping make or grow grassroots organization to change the actual underlying problems that results in somebody like Trump getting elected again and again (and I'm pretty sure that if that doesn't change, when Trump is out somebody else like him or worse will eventually get elected).
The Georgy Floyd demonstrations are a great example of what happens if demonstrations aren't leveraged to grow civic-society movements for change: you get some vague promises from politicians and then nothing actually changes.
I just feel that people here are treating these demonstrations as some kind on getting near the finish line when they're at best (and hopefully) a beginning, and not even a beginning of the end but and beginning of the beginning, and they should be treated as opportunities to get the ball rolling on things that can actually snowball into real change.
If all you do after a demonstration is pat yourself on the back for having "done something" whilst you don't even have some contacts for groups of people you're thinking of joining for further actions, you've just done exactly what the actual powers that control the country wanted you to do: defused your anger whilst not starting the ball rolling on real change.
And didn’t accomplish shit, by design. These types of protests are intended to channel frustration of the masses into feeling like they’ve done something, when really they’ve accomplished nothing.
That was more than enough people to overthrow the parasitic ruling class. Just do it already.
Than the people you criticized. They got off their asses and touched grass for a few hours, met other likeminded individuals, networked, got to know allies in their communities. What are you doing, Comrade? Other than rereading the Communist Manifesto for the zillionth time? Where's your praxis?
That’s what I wanted to confirm. If that’s the bar we’re setting for accomplishments, my group’s blowing them out of the water.
Funny attempt though. I’m not sure how you expected the argument to go your way, when your own standards for accomplishment set a bar so low that almost every single person minimally involved in any activism is doing loads more than this bare minimum measure.
Considering the “no kings” folks were sponsored by the Walton family and purposely enforced a stance of silence on the Gaza genocide, this doesn’t even meet the threshold for bare minimum on human decency.
"The advertisements from Christy Walton are in no way connected to or endorsed by Walmart. She does not serve on the board or play any role in decision-making at Walmart," the company said in a statement to CBS MoneyWatch.
Walton has also made clear that she paid for the ad herself, and that it represents her own views.
I 100% believe billionaires shouldn't exist, are a millstone on the neck of society and progress. I'd also support any action that would take care of the problem... But I don't think you link shows much more than a single deplorable person experiencing a twitch of morality.
What is more likely?: this billionaire is funding a nationwide rally against the president’s cut to benefits that directly contribute to her growing wealth, or this billionaire is doing this out of a sense of morality?
What was the call to action of this protest? What was the demand? Stop, and think it through.
Right there in the article it says that she's the heiress, and not on the board or involved with Walmart in any way besides her familial relation. If billionaires want to chip in for organizing and advertising protests, I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth. This is one of those moments in history where you take the support you can get and do your virtue testing bullshit after things are less dire.
You should absolutely look any horse in the mouth, if it’s a gift from a billionaire.
Not even one person can clearly state what the intended goal of this action was. That’s a huge red flag that should have you asking questions. Not asking why a billionaire is doing something is exactly how both Red & Blue MAGA have ended up on both sides of this fight, though no one on either side can clearly state what their side stands for.
It was a protest organized by a billionaire that was overtly anti-revolution and neutral on genocide.
It was specifically set up to reinforce inaction among a frustrated populace. Numbers don’t mean anything, without the will to use those numbers to revolt.
Quokk.au
Literally all of these except number 23 and 31 are left wing protests.
Let that sink in 32/34 that’s over 94% of the biggest protests in the US were left wing.
We are the majority. Stop believing in the Reagenesque “silent majority” BS.
The majority of people, dont want oligarchs and conservative bigotry.
It's been clear for a long time that the "silent majority" is in fact just an obnoxiously loud minority.
Mean rich people, their deluded lapdogs, and maybe like a thousand honest-to-goodness psychopaths.
🌍🧑🚀🔫🧑🚀 Always have been. That's why conservatives constantly try to make it harder to vote - the more people vote, the more left wing politicians win. Because the majority of people agree with left wing ideals.
If blue fucking showed up at the boxes more often. (Even just 25% of the people registered as blue) nearly all government seats would flip and change would actually happen for the better. Instead left is actually center and right is facist.
Not necessarily true. People with left wing beliefs often vote for right wing candidates because the only information they have is their tiktok feeds and fox news playing at home.
I know two of these. One is lost to the church, the other is coming around.
No, it is necessarily true, according to the data lol. The higher the voter turnout, the more left wing candidates win. I don't doubt that what you say is true at some level, but it doesn't happen enough to affect the trend of higher voter turnout = more left wing wins.
This has changed. Look at the propensity switch. Low propensity voters back trump by higher margins than high propensity voters since 2020.
Hence why Democrats dominate low turnout special elections these days
A couple counterexamples doesn't mean the trend across all elections has changed. And that's what I'm talking about - the trend across all elections.
100%. Republicans have been blatantly against the will of the people, and can only maintain power through gerrymandering and straight up rigging elections. We are the majority by a long shot. The last election was likely rigged, and the heritage foundation, Trump, and Putin are working on the business plot 2. We have to do everything possible to stop it.
Then why is the government so completely dominated by the right if most politically active people are on what Americans call the left?
Gerrymandering and other structural means of disproportionate representation in federal government are big parts of it
Two words, voter disenfranchisement
They remove the right to vote from our poor, our people of color, our citizens who have made mistakes but paid their debts to society, they remove polling places, making people wait hours and hours standing in lines to vote, giving them water is illegal, they purge voter roles right before elections…. And so so many more things. So many Americans don’t vote because they can’t because our right wing government has put so many roadblocks in the way.
Because most Americans have knee-jerk reactions to labels as opposed to policies. Like how everyone supports all the protections Obamacare provides, but how they all want to get rid of Obamacare.
also voter suppression gerrymanderinng élite control of the media etc
Others have commented valid points but I also wanted to bring up propaganda;
A lot of people are unwilling or even unable (i.e. there is only one tv in the house and you don’t get to control the remote most of the time) to get their news from sources that aren’t constantly telling them that Democrats are out to get them and 2SLGBTQIA+ are the enemy and that if they just vote for (wealthy conservative) then all their problems will be solved overnight. Couple that with an education system that has failed to give people the critical thinking skills to ask what trans folk have to do with the economy and you get the 2024 election.
The fact that there are so many valid reasons makes me extremely unhopeful.
To make you more hopeful, they have to constantly fight to keep these systems of oppression in place. We win if/when this stops. All we have to do is keep fighting them. Make them work to oppress us, and it'll crumble.
So the electoral college and the apportionment act will go away, too?
And Americans won’t be a bunch of fucking idiots with the attention span of a goldfish?
And we’ll get proportional representation when they crumble?
Because most of the issues pointed out are structural and have nothing to do with Trump
Well, either they will be fixed or the state collapses eventually. If they keep this up people lose faith in the government.
Because while a lot of Americans support a lot of left wing positions, there are no major left wing parties, and a very small number of politicians who run for national or statewide office who actually take action to further left wing policies. There's Bernie Sanders, who isn't a member of a large party. AOC, and a few others qualify, but being a small proportion of those running, they're a small proportion of those elected, and have relatively little actual influence.
Ideas neither major party supports are basically impossible to see happen.
As others pointed out, there's major structural issues. There's also issues with apathy and people buying into the anti-electoralism/accelerationism con with religious ferver.
It's not hard to be anti-electoral when elections don't seem to ever fucking work
You're not wrong but, that's really the trap that many of us on the Left hand fallen for. It takes a long time to build things and make positive changes in the face of resistance from moneyed interests. Leftists refusing to participate in every election, including primaries, is a good part of how we got here in the first place. Non-voters are the largest bloc and, with surveys consistently showing Left-of-Center policies to be popular with the populace overall, it's safe to assume that the Overton window could be dragged to a better place if they bothered to participate and participate consistently in a calculated manner.
It is absolutely infuriating, indeed, to see all efforts being for nought, though. In less than a year, almost a century of progress has been undone and that would not have been possible if people had been voting stategically. At this point, I'm certain that things will not get appreciably better in my lifetime.
And if things won’t get better, why bother?
I’ve been voting as much as possible and doing the other things for a quarter century and we’ve always gotten further from what I’m hoping for.
I wasted all that time and money and stress and have nothing to show for it.
Politics is dumb and people are terrible. I want to leave the planet.
You've got extremely valid feelings. Mine are quite similar. I do find myself asking "what's the fucking point?" far more often than I'd like.
Rather like the classic "what's the meaning of life?", I don't think that anyone can answer that for anyone else. For me, it's a love of my fellow human beings and belief that, based upon historical evidence, authoritarianism's grip on society always crumbles. It might take a World War, or it may take centuries of insurgency, but it is inevitable. In order for that to happen, people need to experience kindness and empathy. And people need to be willing to be builders, rather than just violent fighters (every society founded in violence and bloodshed has been vulnerable to authoritarians coopting the movement). So, I keep pushing because it might help others when I'm gone. Hell, maybe it will help lead to the cultural and psychological changes necessary to approach the anarchic society of my ideals (I don't think I'll ever directly have that much influence or desire it but every small bit helps).
And there's also spite. Authoritarians of all flavors are fundamentally cruel douchebags and the current ones are exceptionally stupid to boot (and revel in their anti-intellectualism). Continued resistance and standing up for people and showing them kindness really gets under their skin and I'm a big fan of that.
Yup. Me too buddy. Me too.
I might suggest, if you're able, looking about for local (non-political) nonprofit orgs to see if there are any that really align with what you think is important. Helping others in a tangible manner can really help to stave off apathy.
because Dems allowed gerrymandering to go without protest
Money, Propaganda, Tribalism, an undemocratic voting system...
Further, the uneveness of Power is gigantic: billionaires have way much power than common people, who are only powerful if together in large numbers and that's incredibly hard to make happen in a structured way with everybody aligned in the same way compared with what a single billionaire can do if they feel like spending $100 million, and the entire system is set up against people organising in such a way - notice how the biggest demonstration ever in the US, the George Floyd protests, achieved pretty much nothing at all, and the police in the US is still a force of Injustice rather than Justice.
The vast majority of people are either played like fiddles or made to feel impotent and hence just turn of from politics and just live day to day.
The US is not a Democracy.
In one word: money.
My take is that there are a lot of Left people who won't vote for anyone except a candidate they support 100%. Hilary Clinton should have destroyed Trump. Those people ignore the simple truth that any time any GOP gets elected the whole country moves to the right.
Deleted by moderator
There are two sides. The Right and everyone else. The Right wins because they stay on topic and vote. Until the rest of us fall in line like they do, they'll keep on winning. Show me where I'm wrong.
There is an evil witch that lives underground in the Moon and who is mind-controlling non-Rightwing votes in the US so that they don't vote. Show me were I'm wrong.
The easiest thing in the World is to come up with a wild-ass theory without backing it with any evidence and then demanding others disprove it - I do believe that's even a 4chan special.
Donald Trump won the election in 2016 over Hilary Clinton. How much more evidence do you need that people should have done more to defeat Donald and the GOP?
You're wrong by blaming the fictional non voting left for all your woes. Don't be stupid.
It's very simple. 36% of people didn't vote on average. What percent of those people are leftists? If you don't have that information, then you're making shit up and demanding other people prove it for you.
You're saying I'm wrong, and not providing anything like actual information. Why don't you give me some facts and figures to explain it?
There's your tankie behavior.
The electorial college and gerrymandering
Mainly because your average person is apathetic to their own governenance
Because the left keeps falling in with the ineffectual center-right, leading to widespread voter disillusionment.
Also, if memory serves, the right wing group the 3 percenters got their name because it only took 3% of the population to initiate change at some historical event.
Ergo, it doesn’t take that many people to get out and change the nation, but ffs you got to get out
It seems like the ' in the word "don't" somehow fell down and landed on the floor right after the word "people" in your last sentence. Might wanna pick it up and place it where it belongs.
3rd largest so far.
Seriously, there will be more, I don't think we've seen the biggest ones yet either.
1 George Floyd protests 500,000[5]
15,000,000–26,000,000 2020
2 Earth Day 20,000,000[6] 1970
3 No Kings protests 5,000,000 2025
4 Hands Across America (poverty) 5,000,000 1986
5 2017 Women's March 3,300,000–4,600,000
Did any of these have any lasting impact?
Deleted by author
tqke a guess
Ok I will. Yes
Can you provide examples? From what I gather, 1 cops are still killing people, 2 we're still speeding towards climate catastrophe, 3 Trump is still in power, 4 Poverty and wealth disparity is getting worse, 5 Women in many walks of life are still second class citizens.
Unless the lasting impact you mean is one step forwards three steps backwards.
They asked a question, were asked to guess, and now are being demanded proof for the answer they are still seeking.
Do you think that the needle has moved in a positive direction since these protests? Even if it feels like only a few millimetres?
Starting from the bottom of this list:
5. There's more women in the workforce than ever before https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/75-006-x/2022001/article/00009-eng.htm
4. We've seen a drop in poverty since 2017 (but it's climbing back up!) https://www160.statcan.gc.ca/prosperity-prosperite/poverty-pauvrete-eng.htm
3. As a direct response to Trump, Canada elected a Centre-Left Prime Minister in Marl Carney's Liberals when the election was decidedly going to be a Rightwing landslide with the Poilievre's Conservatives.
2. Green, renewable energy has never been more popular.
1. There have been significant reforms since the George Floyd protests. Some cops have seen prison time, or lost their jobs entirely.
That's not to say our job is done and everything is a utopia now - we still have a lot of work to do. However, we do need to acknowledge when things have moved in a good direction or we'll be overwhelmed by the bad and lose hope.
You've gotta see some of the good through all the shitty headlines that want to make you click and feel bad.
Your first source is about women working in Canada and your second is about poverty in Canada.
Unless I missed something, Canada still is a sovereign nation despite what Trump wants.
Reminds me of this:
And then i'm told I should be happy the "needle is moving in a positive direction."
The comment told me to take a guess so I did although my answer was intentionally wrong because I thought my questions answer was obvious. None of the things listed have remained relevant
I'm sorry, but every significant change in the world started with violence.
Intense violent changes are more suited for writing stories about than gradual non-violent changes. I'm not saying gradual non-violent changes is what US needs right now, but your statement is false and I think you should stop instigating violence in this thread.
The United States was created by the Revolutionary War.
We live in a country that only exists because of violence. We celebrate and honor this violence every year on July 4 (and on Memorial Day and Veterans Day)
Clearly we as a nation deeply believe in the transformative power of violence. It's literally what it means to be an American.
I mean, yeah- they all did an excellent job of reinforcing the fascists’ understanding of how little a threat the US “left” is.
So do something about it, or you're just as much a part of the sheep.
I was about to say the list was incomplete as several million attended the Iraq war protests, but it turns out that was global and only a few hundred k Americans bothered to protest the invasion of Iraq based on manufactured propaganda.
The post 9/11 bloodthirsty hysteria, "you're either with us or against us" dissonance, religious nationalism, and ignorant patriotism is what made me believe the US would become an authoritarian dictatorship in my lifetime. Great job teenage me. I hate it.
A lot of people forget the shear bloodlust in the USA after 9/11 that lasted for years.
When people compare the Vietnam and Iraq Wars, a lot of people forget there was a large chunk of the country who were rabidly pro Iraq War while there wasn't an equivalent base for the Vietnam War.
It felt like everyone was like you were either 1000% on board or you were casually on board cause you weren’t “into politics” but trying to find likeminded people who opposed it felt impossible to me. I was 16 when 9/11 happened and shortly after was when I stoped standing for the anthem or saluting the flag in the morning and I was the only kid in my highschool of 1,800 kids to do that and wow I got SO MUCH hate for it
The spike in nationalism was intense, and hasn't really dropped back down to a reasonable baseline since.
This is online discourse in general with Americans. Nuance is impossible, it's all "you're either with us or against us", for example when discussing China. Doesn't even have to be something political, just any charged argument at a point in time.
Must be a coincidence that Lemmy was much more relaxed and welcoming when there were fewer Americans here in the beginning, you could even read news about European countries, now all we get is American politics spam.
I was 16 when 9/11 happened and I was a pretty tuned in kid who spoke up about the issues I had with it, how horrible the patriot act was, all sorts of things and I can absolutely attest the response was always extremely hostile and cutting, filled with personal attacks about how moronic I was, now naive and of course because I’m female I’m inherently too stupid to hold a conversation about this so just shout me down so I will shut my stupid girl mouth and sit down. I’ve never changed my mind, why would I? And you know what, I still get attacked in exactly the same ways but at least the “you’re a terrorist for not supporting the Iraq war” has died down
I think you may have misread the Wikipedia page. There were 300-400,000 in NYC alone.
I was in Boston and there were 10s of thousands, even though it was February and sleeting, SF had another 150-200k.
I think there was a sizable group in DC too.
That's what I thought but those are the "official" estimates, which do strangely focus on NYC.
I guess we're talking about a fascist-oligarch-owned MSM who profit from war and chaos so they had a vested interest to suppress the real opposition.
I was in college at that time and was a typical "centrist" and counter protested. I've changed at lot since then.
Congratulations on your evolution. I was pretty cringe around that era, too.
That was the first overt demonstration that American news outlets were captured by jingoist propaganda. But back then pointing out that media coverage differed from literal experienced reality got you labeled as a terrorist kook.
We clearly have the numbers against traitorous conservatives.
Would be really cool if we could use those numbers before allowing them to destroy our society.
Good... now repeat it but as a General Strike
A general strike would be devastating. But we ain't there yet.
Not that I don't love the idea. It requires a robust support network. Start building a small local community that can be self sufficient. Grow food. Make tools. Sell things to neighboring communities.
The owners will still expect rent during a general strike. We have the numbers, they have the funds to we wait us out. They'll do everything they can to make it hurt us more than them.
Sorry but this line is how the USA fell off the wagon in the first place
nd not only that, you got there on Jan 6
Deleted by author
A 1-week strike ahead of the mid-terms would be enough to make the GOP turn on Trump.
But that's over a year out.
All I'm saying is build a support network before calling for a general strike.
Most people can't afford to strike even if they wanted to.
A year is a nice long runway for that.
It sucks, but we aren't getting rid of the fascists over the weekend. They're in this for the long haul, and we need to be strategic about when and how we proceed. A general strike is a HUGE offensive in the fight, and it needs to be planned well. If we just mass buy shit before and after it doesn't do anything.
Targeted boycotts are similar. They need to be strategic in their timing. Refusing to shop on Amazon for a week doesn't do anything if we just go back to purchasing from them a week later. But what we can do is time it so it hits right before a fiscal quarter. That way it impacts the stock price and doesn't fully bounce back until the following quarterly report.
wouldnt the Rs have to strike too, that would be effective. but we know Rs will never strike or protest on thier own.
The R's are stupid and lazy. They don't want to do all the work themselves. They'll fold. Except the rich ones.
Defeatism has NO PLACE HERE. Pack your shit and leave, fucker! SERIOUSLY fuck off.
Fuck you too buddy.
You guys wanna walk off the job don't let anyone stop you. But maybe spend some fucking time preparing?
Are we mad about being prepared to walk off the job now?
Cool. I just hope your leaders take the hint. Maybe now that they're getting directly threatened they'll show their true colours. Either they stand up for themselves as they see their colleagues start to get attacked (at events or in their own homes), or they cower and come to heel. (Sadly, I have little faith most politicians in most countries these days will do much if it's not their own hides at risk.)
Incidentally, something weird is going on with that list. I'm not sure how the ordering works but much more important, it says only "500,000" for the protests over George Floyd even though one of the references says 15-26 million over the entire course of that movement.
I'm afraid this may not be enough. One who is so deep in their delusions isn't so easily brought back to reality, if they ever can be.
This isn't the first large nationwide protest of his second term and it won't be the last. For instance, the Hands Off ones in April were number 6 on that list. They're getting larger and there is already planning for the next nationwide ones. Or more broadly, here's the cumulative number of protests including smaller ones too
Without huge media buy in, a billion people is just a number they throw out. I don’t see any change from the number one protest on the list. I don’t think protests are working, even as i still go to them.
Yeah I'm afraid the US and all its allies are marching straight into another set of wars and the consequences they'll bring. Apparently we're all the baddies now
The protests didn’t raise eight figures of donations so they don’t care.
It feels good to know that lots of other Americans care about what's going on. I don't know if we're going to make it but I felt like part of a country out there and I hope we figure it out.
This makes me really hopeful.
Less to me. There are families being kidnapped, seperated, and sent to death camps, and the respinding protests outside of LA were a two hour march on a weekend.
What is good enough for you?
Quiet everyone, Mustakrakish is about to tell us the acceptable number for a protest.
Go ahead, the floor is yours.
A general strike?
Funded by?
Looting and mutual aid
looting will not be supported by the majority
Not that poster, but judging by what the largest protests in the US ever - the George Floyd protests - achieved when it comes to police violence in the US (it's the same or worse now), in the present age in the US merelly coming out and walking for a bit in your own time while holding a board up doesn't seem to achieve anything.
Think of it from the point of view of the Political and Money "elites" in the US: they get zero direct negative impact from the riff-raff in their own time doing a big march against the elite's puppet mango emperor, and there is no single Historical instance in the US were the lower classes rebelled against the upper classes and properly fucked them up, so the masses marching isn't even a warning of increasing risk for them - they control the entire political system in the US and make sure whomever is in a position to get elected for a position of political power is always in their pocket, and do not fear the desinfranchised population because they never ever moved against them.
The murder of the CEO of UnitedHealthcare by a single person seems to have achieved more in terms of scaring the powerful than even the millions that came out demonstrating against the police killing of George Floyd.
(I bet that in a place like France, still today the masses coming out even if doing nothing but marching and holding some boards, are cause for concern amongst the "elites")
I actually saw something quite similar in the UK when I lived there: the powerful just didn't care because even large numbers of people doing some polite marching did not damage the interest of the elites and because they had no reason to be concerned with their personal safety because the plebes had never actually rebelled against the upper classes.
That said this situation in the US is even less concerning for the elites because the crowds are so firmly focused in the puppet and disregarding the puppet masters, that even very indirectly there is zero risk for the true powers.
Maybe as some other poster suggested, a general strike would be more effective.
Protests aren't about the Political and Money "elites" as you put it because they don't care no matter what.
You think they'd give a shit if what is happening in LA is happening everywhere? They're like cockroaches that will skitter into hiding until it's safe to come out and monopolize on the ruin.
Protests are about galvanizing support and building unity among the populace. The US has been so divided for so long and that division has been manipulated and grown to benefits those "elites".
I do think a general strike may be effective but it's unrealistic. A nationwide general strike would require massive financial and material support. Where will that come from?
They work on a smaller, union scale because they're supported by the union and outside supporters that are not on strike. They work in other countries that have the social programs in place to support the people which is something the US does not have.
I keep seeing this repeated comparison to France but let's look at that. France is a country a little smaller than the state of Texas with an adult population only slightly more than the total population of California.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's a little easier to coordinate a general strike in a country with 1/6 the population of the US spread across an area 1/15 the size of the US.
Protests in the US are getting bigger and more widespread but it's like a slow wave, it takes time to build.
Look, it can totally seen how the protests give hope to others by showing them that "they're far from alone in their concerns" and doing so in a way which is independent of mainstream political parties (which is good, since in my experience when political parties capture protests, they use such movements for their own personal good, in the process weakening the original movement).
In fact I totally approve of the protests and (even though I'm not American) I'm happy with just how big they were because maybe American has enough good people to make it a better country in the World stage (plus, frankly, I have some American acquaintances from minorities and don't want to see them suffer).
What I fear is that people here in Lemmy are crazily over-celebrating the protest as some kind of ending in itself when it's at best a beginning, and not even the beginning of the end but the beginning of the beginning.
If these protests aren't leveraged to organize grassroots movements to start doing things like guerrilla (in the marketing sense, rather than violent sense) campaigns to oust the crooked politicians no matter what their party is and weaken the influence of Money in politics, they're worthless, same as the George Floyd protests ended up being worthless because they didn't led to any organized follow through to force politicians to restructure policing in America.
So my point is that people need to keep their eye on the long term solution for America's problems, and that doesn't stop with kicking Trump out, it requires a far deeper cleanup of the American political system and addressing the problems of common Americans so that another guy like Trump (or, more likely, worse) doesn't get eventually get in power after Trump is out.
Trump is not the disease, he's a symptom, so merely Trump out isn't going to cure it.
Denigrating the effort to date doesn't do anything to further your point. Instead it serves to quell support and push a negative outlook and view of protesting.
Offering support, encouragement and advocating for sustained effort would.
You mentioned the George Floyd protests and said, in relation to that, "merelly coming out and walking for a bit in your own time while holding a board up doesn’t seem to achieve anything" but that's not true.
During and immediately after George Floyd the protest effected a lot of change but then the protests stopped, complacency set in.
No, the cure is sustained effort. The problems in the US have been building and evolving for decades, if not longer, and they'll take at least that long to get a handle on.
Maybe a protest that goes longer than 2 hours, on a weekend, where everyone dispereses and goes back home to watch the game? Maybe one that causes actual resistence and pushback? Not one that amounts to a cumminity day in the park?
Look at the LA protests. More akin to this:
So your mad that protesters in other cities aren't being attacked by local police and federal agents, got it.
Pass the word everyone, if you're not getting hit with tear gas and rubber bullets your protest doesn't matter. Might as well not even try.
Law enforcement will only target protests that are a threat to the oligarchy.
If a planned public protest is not targeted by law enforcement then it has been determined to be a toothless protest
I'm not sure if you forgot a /s or if you're being serious. If serious this is some ridiculous logic.
He’s saying that if the police don’t bother then the protest has no teeth.
Read this if you're having difficulty understanding the purpose of the recent protests within the greater resistance.
Match the energy during election day ballot yeah?? Thanks
Ok but it's crazy that the George Floyd protests were 5x bigger than this, even with COVID in full swing.
Nobody had anything better to do back then
ah good point. COVID may have boosted the numbers.
Earth Day needs to keep happening too.
I'd like an Earth Day of the week. Day of the week for a bunch of progressive agendas would be cool. You've got Fight Fash Friday, obviously Saturday is Gay, Sunday Earth Day like don't buy anything and maybe sabotage something? Monday is probably international worker solidarity. Etc.
You can fit a lot of good into 7 days.
7 out of top 10 during Trump's presidential terms. My take is that civil duty to protest is stronger than voting for non-Republicans, maybe if elections were on saturdays instead of tuesdays...
You only have to vote once every 4 years. Do both.
Two years in most states. Every year in some states.
If you're only voting in the presidential election, then you are effectively giving Republicans your vote during midterms.
Absolutely vote in every election.
If there is a civic duty in a democracy, this is it.
Classic bad take
You can vote and protest, they're not mutually exclusive
Stop trying to divide the left
not sure which 2 halves i am trying to divide, just concerned Trump won despite having record protests
Exactly. Theyre not mutually exclusive. There is a lnown issue with working class people not being able to take time off on tuesdays to go vote. If elections were saturdays, maybe there would be a better turn out.
I feel like this argument doesnt hold as much water as it used to with how easy it is to vote by mail or use early voting. At least in the 3 locations ive been for the last presidential election
Who said they were mutually exclusive?
Oh, nuh-uh!
FOX News said it was a lightly attended failure. Who am I gonna believe, FOX:News or every local news sorce, that actually was there, in the country?
Eats another paint chip: Foxsch Newsgh
They've got news in the title. They wouldn't lie.
Yeah!
Now knock off all that fascism - or we WILL go back out there and do another lap!
When multiple biggest protests are against your presidency, then you seriously fucked up.
News flash, neither Trump nor his Republican allies care. Literally at all.
I don't get the rankings. Seems like only earth day had more people.
Boy. They sure coulda made that more apparent. Seems like something to put more in parenthesis than a footnote.
Hopefully the people can push out maga eventually.
& here come the lies about the protests
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4mwJ1sIxt4
great job everyone!
Finally found something Trump was good at.
That's great news. The other 9 of the 10 biggest protests were were extremely successful at affecting change.
Since we made such massive progress on all the others, this is clearly a harbinger of social and political progress.
Until we start seeing general strikes, or other action, they will continue to ignore the people.
A week of general strikes, and the stock exchange tanking acordingly, would actually have an effect.
I keep seeing this, and I don't disagree, but what exactly is gonna change? Some rich people get slightly less rich, they'll still own most of our government. Our current admin clearly doesn't care about public opinion.
They care about money.
Day long general strikes have changed policy. A week would bring the government to the table on anything short of dissolving the government.
The US government is terrified of general strikes, and has gone to extraordinary measures to ensure they don't happen.
Only #9 actually accomplished what they wanted.
Earth day did a lot of good
not to rain on the parade or nothing, but a protest that hasn't the implicit threat of "...or else" is just a hang
All the other benefits of a non-violent protest aside, there's also immense value is reminding people that they're not as singular in their viewpoint as they feel.
For a lot of people, it's been very easy to feel like everyone else must be in board with this.
I'm not sure what you're looking for to codify the implicit threat. A couple million people calling you a king at an event called "no kings day" in a country whose founding narrative is "violently rebel against kings" seems pretty implicit to me.
Also, I just realized that there's a red coat/red hat parallel I haven't seen leveraged yet that has a lot of potential.
This destroys the narrative of the protested party. They cannot convincingly talk about 'a few misguided people disagreeing' when you see so many others who feel like you. Even if nothing would be achieved by the protest, this is an immensely powerful confirmation of an individuals beliefs. 100% agree.
Would be MUCH more effective if all the protesters were armed.
The lesson from A Handmaid's Tale is don't protest without the arms to back it up.
They don't have "a" narrative that can be refuted. Any narrative that they present is facile and can be changed in mid sentence. Addressing the things they say is a waste of effort, even as counter-propaganda. It costs them orders of magnitude less to spread bullshit than it costs you to spread the antidote. This is just another way that they get you.
I don't mean to devalue organizing and peaceful protest, but the benefits are what it does to us, not what it does to them.
I was trying to say that. Seeing others puts a 'narrative' that is different from theirs in your own head, because you see with your own eyes. Everybody still needs to adress all incoming information, it's not always apparent it is a false story.
Showing up isn't arguing against them, it's sending a message to other people (amongst other things).
Arguing with fascists is pointless. Showing that not everyone agrees with them is different though, and has value. They may not have a singular static narrative, but they rely on the perception that dissent is a minority position.
Getting millions of Americans to go out and essentially shout "F U Donald" is a little bit more than a hang. And is potentially much more effective than a riot or occupy wall street.
America is still a democracy, in that all the roads to power require you to get folk to show up and vote for you.
Alright, so let's say trump is gone, what replaces him? Business as usual republicans who were all on board with his policies but didn't like how boisterous he was. Democrats are all too happy to play along, fellating war criminals like dick cheney and george bush. America is a representative democracy where you vote on which representative will represent billionaires for you.
I hope these protests develop into something more, but realistically I can only anticipate them being used as political points for democrats during their donation drives to raise tons of money to promote billionaire ass-kissers. Things will continue to get worse and then the next villain of the week will appear as the conduit to do all the bad things billionaires want. We'll be told again all we need to do is get rid of this next villain too and then things will be fine, but then the cycle repeats as things continue to just get worse.
Not much longer if americans dont fight harder.
That is exactly why the midterms will be so important, not to mention the next presidential election. We need to keep the momentum going for a blue wave, and this protest may have helped with that.
When that fails, when Democrats lose voting rights, when Trump pardons the Minnesota assassin to effectively legalize political violence against MAGA's enemies, when all peaceful options for democracy have been exhausted, then let's talk about the violent revolution. Until then, there's no reason to be a buzzkill about this protest.
The fact that No Kings was nonviolent was perfect, for now, because trying to riot or a coup would have just enabled MAGA to justify state-sanctioned violence of their own.
Well, good thing that the Minnesota assassin is currently being held on state-level murder charges because Trump can't pardon non-federal charges.
Oh, thank goodness.
Cute to think there will be midterms. You need to act now.
Can I ask what you're doing to act? I don't mean it as a gotcha question, I'm actually curious. Because I don't know what the heck to do other than protest and vote.
I see so many videos with people saying "I support you" and none saying "I'm going to take action." Everyone is dawdling, nobody is doing anything
5 million people are doing something, your comment is shitting on their effort.
It's incredible that millions of people showed up and pretty much none of them feel for Donald Trump's trap that would have, to the MAGA Republicans, justified martial law and the suspension of liberties.
I'm pretty solidly convinced the protest was a good thing and that we won this battle.
And 2-3 million were doing something a few months ago with the earlier protests. With any luck this trajectory continues
They are saying the effort was toothless, no need to take it so personal.
They are holding signs and walking along streets for a day or 2. That is not stopping fascism.
Tell me, what have you done so far?
I would argue that it already isn't. we kinda waited a bit too long, that's why the protests happened.
Truth will be in the form of how they respond to the protests. If we end up with military occupation or martial law, we're already not a democracy.
that said, tomato, tomaaato, same fix.
Wikipedia is weird. In an article that lists the largest protests that have occurred in the United States, they still feel the need to tell you that each one of these protests, that are on a list of protests that occurred in the United States, in fact occurred in the United States.
Just want to say estimates for both no kings and hands off were much higher.
No kings estimated at 13 million and hands off at over 10 million. The estimated amounts on Wikipedia are way under imo.
Ok. I'm too chicken shit to actually show up in person to one of these protests.
What's the next best thing I can do to meaningfully help?
I get being afraid of going to a protest considering we have police literally saying they’ll just kill people, but that doesn’t mean you can’t get involved with those organizing the protests. See if you can get involved with the organizers of your local protests and ask them what they need for the protests. After all, those signs you see people carrying didn’t make themselves. At the very least you can call your reps and make your voice heard. Even if your reps are dems, make it clear that you want real action, not just talk. You could also talk to the people around you: at work, at the store, family members, etc. Encourage them to call their reps. If your reps aren’t actively making things worse or letting things get worse by doing nothing but fundraise (so most reps) then see if there are efforts to primary any of them and encourage everyone you know to vote in the primaries too
Like I said, I understand being afraid to go to a protest. I am too. But you have to remember that if we don’t stop Trump and a full blown fascist takeover, then things will be much, much worse and much, much harder to change
Wtf, the police is literally saying they'll just kill people?? I missed that one, do you have a link?
Yup. Florida police
Jeeeeesus
You'll only be scared before you go to the protest. Once you're there you'll be fine. The vibe on the ground at every protest I've been to is great and there's a real feeling of camaraderie and support from your community. There is some risk, yes. It's probably still safer than crossing the street.
wear a mask and dark shades to stay anonymous and stand in quietly in back then. the trick is numbers. you don't have to heft a sign and chant slogans and be a spectacle if you don't want to, you can just fill space and it will still help.
Can you share what exactly your concerns are so that folks could suggest a mitigation strategy?
I've gone to protests and stayed near the edge/outskirts so I can feel the vibe and keep an eye out to leave if it feels bad at all. You could do that if you wanted to try it out. I think massive popular protests are usually fine, it's the smaller ones that are more risky IMO.
Fucking show up is what you can do.
Grow a pair.
Yes, Im sure more toxic masculinity will solve OP's problems.
You guys think that merely walking around in your own time holding up a board and shouting a bit, all focused on the mango puppet instead of the puppet masters, is going to change anything given that there is no single Historical event in the US ever of the lower classes rebelling against and deposit the upper classes (even the Revolution was literally the American plebs led by the American upper class fighting against the English plebs controlled by the English upper class)?!
The murder of the CEO of UnitedHealthcare had more impact, if only temporary because it wasn't followed by more similar murders.
Even millions of people marching and shouting a bit (and so polite that they do it in their own time) will cause no fear for the elites because that's in no way a warning that the heads of the elites will soon start getting separated from their shoulders if nothing changes.
You need at the very least a General Strike and/or targetting the economic and propaganda interests of the elites (trashing the TV studios of certain channels or certain newspapers would send a powerful message).
I mean, just notice the impact on police violence of the greatest demonstrations in the US - the George Floyd protests: nothing or even worse than nothing as the pigs have never been this violent.
Getting average people to the point that they are ready to do something like a general strike is a process.
Most people don't even want to have to go to a protest.
But going to a protests is like anteing up in poker -- it is mentally anchoring people as in the game and publicly taking a side.
And yeah - the fucks in power are going to say "bet".
So now millions of people who are not where we already are, who have not wrestles with this and avoided it as long as they can - they are starting to ask, "ok, what do we actually have to risk to change this? What am I willing to do?"
Will we get enough people actually engaged enough for a general strike? I have no idea.
But I know it won't happen without giving people a ramp-up that includes things like the protest this weekend.
Come over and lead the revolution then, if you think you've got what it takes. Otherwise, you're also doing nothing of note.
"Why isn't anyone doing the obviously much better thing?" - someone not doing that thing
I'm not American. If I went there to lead the revolution I would end up in El Salvador.
I did, however, got involved in politics in two countries I live in and did a lot of campaigning for them, so I've actually done the deed as far as I could rather than merely talk about it, and did so further than just demonstrations.
Demonstrations are nice as a way for people to know that they're far from alone in their concerns, but they're worthless if not leveraged into helping make or grow grassroots organization to change the actual underlying problems that results in somebody like Trump getting elected again and again (and I'm pretty sure that if that doesn't change, when Trump is out somebody else like him or worse will eventually get elected).
The Georgy Floyd demonstrations are a great example of what happens if demonstrations aren't leveraged to grow civic-society movements for change: you get some vague promises from politicians and then nothing actually changes.
I just feel that people here are treating these demonstrations as some kind on getting near the finish line when they're at best (and hopefully) a beginning, and not even a beginning of the end but and beginning of the beginning, and they should be treated as opportunities to get the ball rolling on things that can actually snowball into real change.
If all you do after a demonstration is pat yourself on the back for having "done something" whilst you don't even have some contacts for groups of people you're thinking of joining for further actions, you've just done exactly what the actual powers that control the country wanted you to do: defused your anger whilst not starting the ball rolling on real change.
Murdering ceos didnt do jack shit, real change only happens like this
These protests, while better than nothing, will not produce real change.
Just as the George Floyd protests did not produce real change (Pelosi kneeling and raising a fist is not "real change")
UnitedHealth reduced claim denials following the murder. So at least that is some tangible positive result
That's just not true though. You're just spouting bullshit on the internet.
That link states that no federal reform occurred. Which supports my point.
Of the state level changes, they are all aesthetic and surface level changes - and even those are now being undone.
So I'm not seeing the real change. Which demonstrates that the protests were not effective
Behead those who say No Kings is violent
I say the world must learn of our peaceful ways...
By force!
Cool
Do the next one next Saturday, PLEASE
Do not lift the pressure, keep going at it
And didn’t accomplish shit, by design. These types of protests are intended to channel frustration of the masses into feeling like they’ve done something, when really they’ve accomplished nothing.
That was more than enough people to overthrow the parasitic ruling class. Just do it already.
Please, if you feel like you've got the charisma and plan to rally us to, come on over and do so. Otherwise you're doing no better.
Doing no better than what? What was accomplished? What’s the bar we’re measuring against?
Than the people you criticized. They got off their asses and touched grass for a few hours, met other likeminded individuals, networked, got to know allies in their communities. What are you doing, Comrade? Other than rereading the Communist Manifesto for the zillionth time? Where's your praxis?
That’s what I wanted to confirm. If that’s the bar we’re setting for accomplishments, my group’s blowing them out of the water.
Funny attempt though. I’m not sure how you expected the argument to go your way, when your own standards for accomplishment set a bar so low that almost every single person minimally involved in any activism is doing loads more than this bare minimum measure.
Considering the “no kings” folks were sponsored by the Walton family and purposely enforced a stance of silence on the Gaza genocide, this doesn’t even meet the threshold for bare minimum on human decency.
Your conspiracism is silly but otherwise you're correct
What conspiracy?
Cool, then Sieg Heil to you, mein guter Herr. Enjoy your moral superiority when ICE kicks in your door.
Yes, if you oppose ICE but not the genocide, I am morally superior to you. That is a factual statement.
Deleted by moderator
Really? No one? Can’t even tell me what specific change they’re trying to enact?
Expecting a pat on the back, and can’t even articulate a specific policy goal. Absolutely wild and hilarious.
I would never. So please clarify for me- what was accomplished by this billionaire sponsored event? What change was enacted or demanded?
Do you have any receipts for that "billionaire sponsored" claim?
Hardly a “claim.” They didn’t hide it. Their backers were listed right on many of their ads.
https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/walmart-ad-no-kings-boycott/
I 100% believe billionaires shouldn't exist, are a millstone on the neck of society and progress. I'd also support any action that would take care of the problem... But I don't think you link shows much more than a single deplorable person experiencing a twitch of morality.
What is more likely?: this billionaire is funding a nationwide rally against the president’s cut to benefits that directly contribute to her growing wealth, or this billionaire is doing this out of a sense of morality?
What was the call to action of this protest? What was the demand? Stop, and think it through.
Right there in the article it says that she's the heiress, and not on the board or involved with Walmart in any way besides her familial relation. If billionaires want to chip in for organizing and advertising protests, I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth. This is one of those moments in history where you take the support you can get and do your virtue testing bullshit after things are less dire.
You should absolutely look any horse in the mouth, if it’s a gift from a billionaire.
Not even one person can clearly state what the intended goal of this action was. That’s a huge red flag that should have you asking questions. Not asking why a billionaire is doing something is exactly how both Red & Blue MAGA have ended up on both sides of this fight, though no one on either side can clearly state what their side stands for.
It was a moral victory. It showed us jow strong and numerous we are and we needed that.
It was a protest organized by a billionaire that was overtly anti-revolution and neutral on genocide.
It was specifically set up to reinforce inaction among a frustrated populace. Numbers don’t mean anything, without the will to use those numbers to revolt.
Go do something violent then
You first.
HEY EVERYBODY!..."you first" is absolutely NOT the flex you think it is.
Says you.
Amazing observation!
Deleted by author
Wrong thread, I think.
Correct
The posters username is ironic, given the content.
Rand is not a king. He is the dragon reborn and the chief of chiefs, but not a king.
Deleted by moderator
"no kings" isn't meant as an insult, what are you on about? It's a statement that people don't want a king.