10-year-old Fatima Jaafar Abdullah was killed in pager explosions in Lebanon.
Israel murders another kid again.
If anyone else did this, it would be universally recognized as a heinous act of state-sponsered terrorism.
Right? Imagine if Iran did this to Israel.
There would be no more Iran if they did it to Israel.
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I believe the devil’s advocate argument would be that, based on Hezbollah’s internal communications, the Mossad intercepted a shipment of pagers which were being purchased to replace their (potentially compromised) mobile phones, knowing that these were - in theory - being distributed exclusively to Hezbollah operatives. That would make it the most precise military strike of all time.
Everyone who launches a rocket is accepting the possibility of “collateral damage”, but this is surely the most surgical of surgical strikes in history. And yet, yes, they must have accepted the risk of bystander casualties, which just serves to highlight how awful that logic is. It’s definitely not worse than randomly firing into a crowd, though.
That would make it the most precise military strike of all time.
Pretty sure that honor still goes to the R9X Slap Chop. The pager explosions, on the other hand, injured thousands.
Fat electrician had a great video on this.
Soo accurate that if the target is in a car you need to know what seat.
I really don’t get it. Other than the “WAOW” factor, this certainly can’t have been a good use of resources for Israel.
They already believed their communications were being intercepted so switched to another method.
That method then literally blew up in their pockets.
The amount of fear and distrust of the supply chain can’t be overstated.
I dunno man. I just feel like if you’re at the point where you can clandestinely intercept huge amounts of your enemy’s personal communication devices, ‘turn them into bombs’ feels like a bit of a low-yield outcome.
Consider it backwards: Israel sees this attack happening so valuable, that they were willing to forego using the pagers for spying.
Considering Israel’s history, I don’t know how much agreement there would be between my estimation of military value and the current administration’s.
Alternately this proves that they still are intercepting their communication AND can intervene in their supply chain.
I assure you that basically every nation state in FVEY (and then Israel by proxy) has the ability to intercept your communication.
This is something that ought to be considered as a basic entry level accepted threat.
NOW they know they have to worry about shit blowing up randomly, brand new stuff.
They thought the pagers were secure communication devices. Now they know they are not. Hezbollah was maybe planning to escalate its attacks on Israel, without good, secure communications, they probably can’t. On the flip side, if Israel decides to invade Southern Lebanon to escalate things with Hezbollah, Hezbollah is going to have a much tougher time coordinating its defense since its supposed ‘secure’ communication system has just been blown up, the previous system (cell phones) what already suspected of being compromised, and now today, walkie-talkies used by the senior Hezbollah leadership have also exploded.
This is not normal for cyber ops. The only thing really that makes sense is if they needed to buy time so set off the pagers. Otherwise they just set their compromised communications devices on fire and told them they did it.
In which world getting thousands of Hezbolla operatives unwittingly keeping a bomb in their pocket would not be a good use of resources for Israel?
Because it changes nothing in the long run. So what exactly was so imminent that this had to happen?
what exactly was so imminent that this had to happen?
What was so imminent that Hezbollah had to fire that rocket barrage some days ago?
You don’t seem to understand the nature of this conflict
I meant it more like, why blow up the pagers you spent all this effort to compromise. I would have thought that having access to those devices would be worth more covertly.
I suppose its possible the only thing they could manage to sneak into the devices was explosives though, since you have to take the board apart to find it. Its likely it looked like a board component too.
Hezbollah has been saying for a while it ‘might’ escalate its actions against Israel. Now… that does not seem as likely.
I guess I should have qualified that to exclude individual assassinations, otherwise you’d have to include snipers and whatever. I almost don’t believe that “knife missile” is real (quotation marks because the only real knife missiles are Culture technology).
Correct.
Killing civilians isn’t a war crime. Deliberately killing civilians, or not taking reasonable steps to minimize civilian casualties is a war crime.
“Small” explosive that is embedded in something passed to and likely worn by the target is unlikely to be a war crime. If they somehow snuck a 1000lb bomb into one it absolutely would be however.
Booby trapping objects associated with daily civilian use is a war crime
These pagers were distributed to doctors and nurses, so I would also argue that they were booby trapping medical supplies, which are protected.
Close - you’re looking at letter, not action and intentions.
Booby traps are banned for use in ways that are likely to be used by civilians and remove protections on the civilian population. Things like placing explosives on public transport, the side of the road, in marketplaces or protected places. Targeted strikes, like on a piece of civilian equipment that is likely to only be used by the target (cellphone, personal vehicle, laptop) are permitted as they are unlikely to be set off by a random civilian.
What is a question, however, is if the targets were actually combatants.
There is no chance Mossad wasn’t aware that these pagers were distributed to civilians.
I feel like people are missing one of the more heinous aspects of this, which is that it injured thousands of people and only managed to kill ~10 of their targets. The outcome of this attack is going to be general terror and potentially hundreds of life altering injuries but very little military advantage.
They injured thousands of their targets, killed a few, and only got very little collateral damage
Nasrallah would shit down his prophet’s throat to get this kind of outcome
The advantage is huge. 1000s of militants are now seriously injured and are no longer battle ready. Many will never be again. Massive success for Israel, and one of the most precision strikes ever used. Now there will be fear from any communication devise exploding, there will be 1000s of man hours wasted taking other stuff apart to check it, and morale will be down as well.
Now westerners will worry when lining up for concerts or flights and the increased security expenditure will impact their economy
I guess you support ISIS terror attacks as a brilliant play too?
How did the compromised pagers not trigger warnings at airport X-rays? I guess lithium batteries and C4 look similar?
They’re about as similar as a nuclear bomb and a portable garbage disposal system
So you’ve seen X-rays of both?
How did something that only killed 10 targets injure thousands, especially when you are considering explosives.
I don’t think I could injure 1000s of civilians with only 10 targets killed with an explosive hidden on their person if I tried.
It’s literally a war crime to attack people who are not actively participating in combat. That includes people who are members of your enemy’s military.
That includes people who are members of your enemy’s military.
No, members of an enemy’s military are combatants regardless of whether they’re holding a gun or in a firefight at the time. The only exception is personnel such as chaplains and medics.
How do you have less votes than the wrong person?
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That’s a warcrime
If you commit a war crime. That be a paddlin’.
This attack is a warcrime based on treaties that Israel has itself signed to, and has been recognized as such for decades.
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18 U.S. Code § 2441 - War crimes
Prohibited conduct: “(D) Murder.— The act of a person who intentionally kills, or conspires or attempts to kill, or kills whether intentionally or unintentionally in the course of committing any other offense under this subsection, one or more persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including those placed out of combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause”
-According to Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions, combatants are:
the armed forces of a party to a conflict, and also groups and units that are under a command responsible to that party for the conduct of its subordinates, even if that party is answerable to a government or an authority not recognized by an adverse party. Such armed forces shall be subject to an internal disciplinary system, which, inter alia, shall enforce compliance with the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict
According to this rule, when military medical and religious personnel are members of the armed forces, they are nevertheless considered non-combatants. According to the First Geneva Convention, temporary medical personnel have to be respected and protected as non-combatants only as long as the medical assignment lasts (see commentary to Rule 25).[14] As is the case for civilians (see Rule 6), respect for non-combatants is contingent on their abstaining from taking a direct part in hostilities.
The military manuals of Germany and the United States point out that there can be other non-combatant members of the armed forces besides medical and religious personnel. Germany’s Military Manual explains that “combatants are persons who may take a direct part in hostilities, i.e., participate in the use of a weapon or a weapon-system in an indispensable function”, and specifies, therefore, that “persons who are members of the armed forces but do not have any combat mission, such as judges, government officials and blue-collar workers, are non-combatants”.[15] The US Naval Handbook states that “civil defense personnel and members of the armed forces who have acquired civil defense status” are non-combatants, in addition to medical and religious personnel.[16]
Non-combatant members of the armed forces are not to be confused, however, with civilians accompanying armed forces who are not members of the armed forces by definition.[17]
On the prohibition of indiscriminate attacks:
“© those which employ a method or means of combat the effects of which cannot be limited as required by this Protocol; and consequently, in each such case, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction.”
It’s important to note that this is the consensus of much of the international community and the US (and I presume its surrogate Israel) have not signed on to the above provision despite speaking to support it. The weasely approach we (the US) have taken to these standards really demonstrates how hollow our sentiments are when we feign moral authority in international affairs.
“© those which employ a method or means of combat the effects of which cannot be limited as required by this Protocol; and consequently, in each such case, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction.”
Would you like to explain how setting up bombs within the personal devices of enemy combatants is striking civilians or civilian objects without distinction? Or do you think all collateral damage is a war crime?
Like, fuck’s sake, not every dogshit act by a criminal state like Israel is a war crime. Jesus H. Christ.
It’s important to note that this is the consensus of much of the international community and the US (and I presume its surrogate Israel) have not signed on to the above provision despite speaking to support it. The weasely approach we (the US) have taken to these standards really demonstrates how hollow our sentiments are when we feign moral authority in international affairs.
Was this really all just to say “US BAD” and “US PUPPET ISRAEL”? Holy shit.
First of all, there was no way for Israel to know whether the people they claim to be targeting were combatants when the attack occurred since Israel had no information about the status of these bombs when they chose to detonate them.
Secondly, placing a bomb in a common device that you have every reason to believe will spend much of its time in the proximity of civilians, in homes, markets and other public spaces, and choosing to detonate it without knowledge of the location of the bomb, or it’s proximity to your supposed target, is actively avoiding distinguishing between ‘combatants’ and civilians. I can’t believe that western brain rot requires this to be spelled out for it.
First of all, there was no way for Israel to know whether the people they claim to be targeting were combatants when the attack occurred since Israel had no information about the status of these bombs when they chose to detonate them.
So it’s your view that any explosive that isn’t tracked at all times with 100% accuracy is a war crime.
Uh. ‘Interesting’.
Secondly, placing a bomb in a common device that you have every reason to believe will spend much of its time in the proximity of civilians, in homes, markets and other public spaces, and choosing to detonate it without knowledge of the location of the bomb, or it’s proximity to your supposed target, is actively avoiding distinguishing between ‘combatants’ and civilians. I can’t believe that western brain rot requires this to be spelled out for it.
‘Western brain rot’, apparently, is when someone else disproves your utterly and blatantly incorrect claim about the definition of a war crime and then you flail around desperately seeking another justification for your claim once disproven. Okay.
Israel learned that Hezbollah was ordering new pagers to be given to members of Hezbollah and no one else. Every member of Hezbollah is a sworn enemy of Israel. These pagers were to be used for secure communications between members of Hezbollah. It was highly likely that nearly every one of these pagers would be carried by members of Hezbollah at the time they went off (IIRC 3pm local time).
Hmmm I guess with Israel having a conscript army then rocket barrages aren’t acts of terrorism. If a large portion of the country is considered “combatants” then any non-coms can be written off as “acceptable collateral damage”.
Not unless you’re making a meaningful attempt to target combatants. “All civilians are combatants” is the kind of Nazi shite that Israel indulges in, so I’d thank you to not peddle such grotesque views.
I don’t ascribe to it.
I don’t ascribe to it.
Then repeating things like this
Hmmm I guess with Israel having a conscript army then rocket barrages aren’t acts of terrorism.
in attempting to equate collateral damage with attacking civilians should probably be avoided.
It is a war crime to intentionally attack non-combatants.
Which explains why the IDF has had so many “accidents” recently.
That is absolutely not true. An easy example to disprove your argument would be the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941. The American Navy was caught completely by surprise. At the end of the war, there were some Japanese tried for war crimes, but not for the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor.
I’m willing to argue that the unprovoked attack on Pearl Harbor was replete with war crimes by modern standards. I’ve cited some documentation above. Since doing that I’ve learned that there are also specific prohibitions against booby-trapping: https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/ccw-amended-protocol-ii-1996/article-7 Turns out that Israel has violated many international standards for war crimes and terrorism. It’s simple mystifying to me that any of this is controversial.
I’ll quibble with you on ‘booby trap’. Booby traps are like what Russian is doing in Ukraine when they retreat: putting primed grenades next to doors that will be opened when Ukrainian troops come through. Or maybe later if the Ukrainian troops don’t find the booby traps: civilians who come back to the ‘cleared’ areas. This is why booby trapping is prohibited. The enemy might miss it and later on a civilian might come across it.
The Israelis modified devices meant for military purposes by a para-military organization. These pagers weren’t being sold in local markets to anyone who would buy them.
That would make every crime a war crime going back thousands of years where they would lay siege on villages until the citizens starved
Yes?
That means the term “war crimes” is meaningless because it would just mean war. The point of specifying some actions as war crimes is to denote things that even in war you shouldn’t do not just say that all wars are crimes
Now you are getting it! War is bad!
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Turns out they weren’t.
Not that I think the Israel is the good guy in this conflict, but your argument is pretty weak.
Pager are designed to be trackable. If you have such deep access to these devices, you know exactly who got called by whom and when.
Yes, there will be collateral damage, but that’s almost a given in any armed conflict.
If these were one-way pagers,they are not easy to track, as they don’t transmit messages, but only receive and display them.
…and you know which telephone numbers send data to the pager and at which time. That is sufficient to track or identify individuals.
If this is a supply chain attack, the attacker already knows, which pagers are part of the organization they want to target.
What this thread here shows really well, is that the general population vastly underestimates the abilities of intelligence agencies and technology in general.
You wrote a bunch of things that have nothing to do with my comment.
The terrorist organization Hezbollah used dumb pagers exactly because they don’t transmit anything, and therefore are very hard to track.
No, they are not.
As I wrote, you can track which pager got paged when. And you can identify who uses that pager. The pager itself does not need to transmit anything for that.
You obviously don’t know how tracking works.
You can’t track a pager.
A mobile tower will send it a message, but since there’s no two-way communication, theres no way to track where the pager received the message. (Even if it was a two-way one, you need at least three good points of connection to be able to triangulate it.)
So how exactly do you identify who’s using a pager you don’t even know the location of?
You obviously don’t know how tracking works.
Ditto
By tracking who sent what to whom?
If you know the phone number of a Hisbollah member and they send messages to a set of pagers, these are likely Hisbollah pagers. If you do that to several phone numbers, you get a pretty comprehensive list of members. You don’t need to know, where exactly they are. That’s simply not relevant.
And again: if it’s a supply chain attack, you don’t even need these contacts. Just a single entry point into the supply chain of the organization.
You obviously don’t know how one-way pagers work.
You can’t easily track a device that doesn’t communicate outwardly.
Please track the location of my ceiling fan, it receives wireless transmissions from a remote and beeps in response. Kind of like a pager.
I don’t need your location.
Pager transmissions contain a sender and a receiver. That’s all the information you need. If a known Hisbollah sender sends to a receiver, that receiver obviously has some ties to Hisbollah.
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So which armed conflict in the middle of Beirut are you talking about now?
Maybe the guys shooting rockets at Israel?
Don’t play dumber than you are.
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Then I guess Hezbollah attacking IDF servicemen wherever they might be, including civilian areas in Tel Aviv, is completely okay. Even if it comes to some civilian casualties.
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Both of them are ‘wrong’ and ‘okay’ when they do this. But in some way Hezbollah is ‘more wrong’, because they (re)started it. The only result being a lot of useless casualties with no end in sight.
I doubt if Hezbollah would attack the IDF directly. The IDF is armed and would shoot back immediatley.
So, what exactly do you think would be a proper reaction here?
Hisbollah is de facto a state actor in Lebanon. Lebanon is doing nothing against a group whose declared goal is the destruction of Israel, including shooting unguided rockets into civilian areas.
Now, how would you address that? Unless you have any idea how else to solve this, you’re simply talking out of your ass.
It’s easy, stop the colonization
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Obviously Israel should kindly ask that they turn themselves over a the border so they can have a fair trial
Maybe they should stop their genocide in Palestine. Hesbollah has said on multiple occasions that they’ll stop any hostilities if a permanent ceasefire is implemented.
I hardly think it is necessary to be an expert in Near-East conflict or politics in order to condemn what basically amounts to a terrorist attack.
Whether or not they should do something is a different issue all together. But dismissing criticism because they don’t provide an alternate solution to an intricate problem is hardly any more helpful. Israel has many more pathways to do this properly, one idea would be the ICJ.
You’re also falling into an overgeneralization fallacy. While Hezbollah is in the lebanese government, this doesn’t make all citizens of lebanon complicit. Hezbollah doesn’t represent all of Lebanon, neither do Hamas all of Palestine or Netanjahu all of Israel.
But I see you’re German, so the psychosis doesn’t surprise me
They were shot from inside Beirut?
YoUrE ArGuMeNt is WeAk
If iPhones had explosives planted in them straight out of the factory and would’ve went off in New York all at the same time, injuring thousands and endangering people around them, the 24/7 news cycle would’ve already called for total annihilation and what not.
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10 year old girl clearly was in a right wing terrorist group.
Wide range bombings like this are not a military tactic aimed at neutralizing a threat. This is literally what terrorists do to cause terror.
Distributing bombs to terrorists is about as exact as you can get. It’s not on Israel if a terrorist lets their kids play with their tools.
Israel could have leveled a block in Lebanon like they do in Gaza, but they didn’t.
It’s not on Israel if a terrorist lets their kids play with their tools.
Man has pager in his pocket. Man is sitting down having a meal with his family. Pager blows up in his pocket, killing the child sitting next to him, and probably killing or injuring other family members.
Targeted or not, that child’s death is squarely on Israel. They decided that collateral damage was acceptable when they chose this method of mass assassination.
When Hezbollah chose to reopen hostilities with Israel the outcome would always be more death. Her father could have chosen peace instead
This attack didn’t just target militants, it also hit politicians who would be working diplomatically towards peace. Israel has an extremely broad definition of “terrorist”
Do you have examples?
Dropping smaller bombs that kill innocents is still terrorism. It’s not like it’s okay if I blow up a bus just because I blew up a building last week.
Blowing up the bus that transports soldiers to camp is a hell of a lot better than blowing up a building where a single officer lives.
In this analogy it’s just a city bus. They killed civilians with this attack, I’m not sure if you realize. Unless you think the 10 year old girl was a hardened Hezbollah soldier.
And yes, it’s better, but not good. Especially since they’re not even at war with Lebanon right now. They’re just trying to expand the conflict to keep the US in a forever war to justify their genocide and so Netanyahu never has to account for his crimes.
A City bus doesn’t actually fit the analogy. Israel didn’t randomly distribute explosive pagers to anyone. They went to a terrorist organization.
In this case it’s Hezbollah that chose to ‘expand the conflict’ back in October
They’re evil terrorists either way.
Israel could have leveled a block in Lebanon like they do in Gaza, but they didn’t.
They absolutely cannot, not without expecting a similar, if not bigger, retaliation from Lebanon, Iran, Insarhallah, and probably Turkey.
Lebanon could retaliate, but it’s still going to bring whether Hezbollah is really state sponsored to the forefront of the conflict. The other two countries aren’t going to openly invite US/EU intervention by taking action.
Turkey literally said they were willing to intervene if the conflict further escalates.
And if Israel bombed Lebanon, it wouldn’t matter whether Hezbollah is state sponsored or not. They would be attacking Lebanon’s sovereignty.
Not really. The attack indiscriminately killed and injured many innocent Lebonese. Lebanon is fully justified in responding solely on that basis alone.
That really doesn’t seem to be true though. There’s no reports of anyone injured that wasn’t a militant or directly related to one. This doesn’t seem to be a case of 100s of innocent’s to a single target, it appears to very much be the opposite. That is expressly not indiscriminate.
Distributing bombs to terrorists
What if you distribute bombs to Lebanese civilians, detonate them, and then label the corpses “Terrorist” after the fact?
Then there would be news articles about mass civilian casualties, and not the focus on a single girl who was the daughter of a Hezbollah militant.
Then there would be news articles about mass civilian casualties
You’re literally posting under one of them.
Focused on a single person who was in a car with a Hezbollah member when the pager exploded. Yes it’s unfortunate she died instead of her father, but it’s hardly proof of indiscriminate attacks.
10 year old girl clearly was in a right wing terrorist group.
This is what Israelis actually believe
In an episode of Two Nice Jewish Boys, which aired three weeks ago, host Weinstein said: “If you gave me a button to just erase Gaza, every single living being in Gaza would no longer be living tomorrow. I would press it in a second.”
He claimed that “most Israelis” would do the same.
Meningher added that they would also want to wipe out Palestinians in “the territories.”
“Because that’s the reality we live in, it’s us or them, and it has to be them,” Weinstein said.
He added that Israelis want “full-scale war.”
Indeed. I’m paging Nasrallah right now that he should update his manifesto
Oh, wait…
Oh man, the bill to go to war with China would have been ratified in milliseconds.
Israel continues doing bad things. Not much of a shock.
Still needs to be called out each time it happens.
Frustrating to do another long-form argument of “actually, when you distribute a bunch of explosives and set them off in crowded areas, you’re not fighting terrorism but doing terrorism”
For some reason people struggle to believe flinging hand grenades into a crowd is bad public policy when a US ally does it.
this is considerably more targeted at the actual bad guys than their usual MO of bulldozing palastinian neighborhoods though so… an improvement?
'hey at least it’s not genocide, it’s just terrorism light
There’s no proof of that and I’m not trusting mossad lies.
Truly the depravity of Israel knows no limits.
It seems they did learn some stuff from WW2.
Y’know, by the standards of a military assault, this one was actually pretty targeted. So far there’s a handful of children in thousands of casualties, who mostly fit the profile of a military or military-adjacent individual. Compare that to a ground assault of your choice, by any military anywhere.
Let’s shit on them for all the actual atrocities they’ve done.
I’m going to shit on them for this too. I don’t need to give them any credit.
If you actually care about being taken seriously, being factually correct helps.
You mean killing children as par for the course, or killing people who are attending a funerary rite for other people who were killed by the same killer, is somehow not an atrocity?
I think I explained how the children were not par for the course this time, actually. Rage jerk away, but I thought I’d inject some factuality while it’s still uncool.
know, by the standards of an Israeli military assault, this one was actually pretty targeted
FTFY, and yeah, at least this time they didn’t actively bomb a known humanitarian corridor or refugee camp, so that would be comparatively targeted.
By any normal standard. By the standards of recent Israeli military assaults, this was a damn miracle.
Reported as a biased source and MBFC backs that up… when talking about Turkish issues, they are very pro government.
As this doesn’t readily involve the Turkish government, I’ll allow it.
“MBFC” is basically a single dude’s opinion, containing a shitton of bias. Using it to verify credibility of anything is wrong.
If you have a better solution involving an API we can use for free, I’m open.
I see no issue with the MBFC assessment on this source.
Lots of people said openly “we’d rather not have it at all”. The bot gets downvoted every thread with comments criticizing it. It doesn’t need to exist and is openly harmful.
I understand someone put a lot of work into it, but it simply doesn’t work for what it needs to do. Unless you want to be spreading misinformation, then it works perfectly.
LOL this is the hilarious response of
“Oh yeah?! Don’t have anything better than putting a biased source of credibility attached to every article for no reason other than for people to use to dismiss articles and not read them?!
Well too bad removing it isn’t an option! Find me a different one cause it makes me feel good!”
said the minority.So, in other words, no, you don’t have a better idea. Got it.
Omg… getting reddit flashbacks right now…
Complaining to the mods about things the admins do? Very Reddit…
Are people really arguing with you and not realizing you already ruled in their favor?
Pick your battles people. You don’t bite the hand that’s feeding you and all that…
The only idea you will accept is yours, literally has to be there cause of no particular reason other than personal desires and wants.
Its like saying the only option is punching or kicking children cause you won’t accept the answer of “stop abusing them!”
Maybe just back off and listen? Or at this point I am forced to assume the mods are being paid for including something that has not been positively talked about once. And they are just taking payment.
Oh, no, we’re fully accepting of other ideas. We even had a meeting with another fact checking company who wanted to charge us 6 figures for API access, so that’s a non-starter.
The basics are really simple - You think MBFC is biased? Cite an example and name someone better.
We’re waiting…
You aren’t accepting of other ideas you just want someone to tell you what they are apparently. These “fact checkers” are for making a profit or paying themselves and mostly exist to make you feel good about being picky with what information you ignore in a world where there mostly isn’t good options for any number of reasons depending who you agree with.
You can’t seen to get the idea that we don’t view it as necessary and visual clutter. And the option we are aiming for isn’t a replacement that you seen to be stuck on because, see above.
People aren’t likely to change their stance either it just reconfirms set feelings for the most part unless it is a lie at which point it should already be removed right?
So this is at best a badge for pretending civility. It’s pointless.
I am quite shocked after reading the comments. There are some people who believe Israel are the victims, after all what Israel did this past few months.
Manufactured consent is a helluva drug
I have
asome question(s).Did all pagers in Lebanon just explode or was it only targeted pagers of terrorists that exploded? where they rigged with explosives? how can such a small device in the hands of so few people hurt so many people if they were not rigged with explosives? Was it only terrorist using pagers or is this still a thing i Lebanon?
Allegedly the shipment was intercepted and there was semtex installed
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The 10 year old girl was Hezbolah?
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Or maybe she died because she was young and small.
You and all the people upvoting you are fucking insane. Justifying a little girl during like this is peak American coping mechanisms.
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Is israel saying its a retaliation for that? Would make more sense.
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So that’s justification to kill her?
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it wasn’t though.
they deliberately set off an explosive device with no notion as to where that device or who else it was around. This was a deliberate act, and the way their using them, the chaos and “collateral damage” isn’t a bug, it’s a feature.
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I’m going to guess she was very close to her father when the bomb went off. According to reports, a message (phone number?) was sent to all of the intercepted Hezbollah pagers at 3pm local time (IIRC), after a couple of seconds, the bomb went off. So a likely scenario is the father had the girl on his lap, the pager starts buzzing/ringing, dad reaches into his pocket and pulls out the pager to read the message. Proximity to the pager killed the girl while only injuring dad since he has a much greater body mass. Or, perhaps the pager was laying on a table and the girl picked it up? It’s sad, either way.
Hezbollah decided to switch to using pagers because you can’t track them. Not sure if anyone else (eg. Medical personnel) was also using them.
Doesn’t matter if it was hizbollah pagers or not. Hizbollah fighter also had to live normal life, go to shops to buy food etc
Hezbollah fighter could choose to live normal life and not be a member of Hezbollah. Lay down with dogs, wake up with fleas…
I don’t care about hizbollah. I care about the civilians who didn’t choose to be with a hizbollah fighter in the same place. Israel did the plan knowing really well that civilians and members of the fighter families would die.
I don’t care about hizbollah.
And Hezbollah doesn’t care about any civilians that get killed near them. ‘Involuntary Martyrs’ is the term I believe they used. According to reports, only 14 people have died, which is an extraordinarily low number considering that Israel went after thousands of targets that don’t wear uniforms and deliberately intermix freely amongst civilians.
Yes hizbollah doesn’t care about civilians, the problem is that you are removing alll the blame from israel. You are forgetting the hundred of injured too. If you think it’s ok for israel to sacrifice civilians to kill militants you are a terrible human being
From the videos I have seen, very few truly innocent bystanders are being hurt. These are very small explosive charges. In one video, a Hiz dude looks at his pager while he is in the produce section of a market. There are about 4 - 5 people within 10 feet of him. The pager explodes, Hiz dude goes down, no one else is hurt. In a second video, Hezbollah member is paying for something. He is within arm’s reach of the clerk he is giving the money to. The pager goes off, he goes down. The clerk runs away unscathed.
In the history of warfare, this operation may be the most surgical of strikes ever in regards to intended targets hit vs innocent civilians hit.
It’s a sad fact of modern warfare that if a militant group doesn’t wear uniforms and tries to hide amongst civilians, it opponents will eventually go after them and there will be civilian casualties.
Here are the videos I was talking about. Be warned, they are a little rough to watch. There isn’t any blood, but the audio is quite disturbing. You may want to mute them.
Here is the market video I was talking about. https://funker530.com/video/hezbollah-operatives-getting-wrecked-by-exploding-pagers
Here is the payment video: https://funker530.com/video/another-hezbollah-pager-explodes-on-camera
Sorry, you are just a scum
This is why i also ask if they were rigged with explosives or they somehow made the batteries explode or smth. There are no details in the local news but clips of some guy falling over because something in his pocket exploded. This made no sense that something like that, could cause 2750 injuries unless almost 3000 pagers exploded in a similar way, especially because everything around these guys, was barelly affected!
From what I have read elsewhere, batteries don’t explode. They can heat up and catch fire, but not explode. From what I have read online, a small amount of explosives were added to the pagers plus a very small detonator.
Yeah… i have read multiple explanations from the shipment being intercepted and rigged, to the actual pagers being old but they all had their batteries replaced recently with rigged ones. It does indeed sound like some explosives were introduced into the pagers, one way or annother.
Lmfao this attack is aimed at nailing terrorists. Well lookie there. Lemmy you never let me down
I don’t understand what you’re trying to say. Is it OK for a nation state to plant bombs in suspected opponents and then explode them at random without respect for collateral damage? If Russians did the same to Americans, you’d be all “fair play, mate”?
If Russians did the same to Americans, you’d be all “fair play, mate”?
At wartime, sure. Using explosives on enemy combatants outside of military-exclusive areas is not inherently a war crime.
Israel is in the wrong here because it’s part and parcel of their continuing strategy of escalation in service to Netanyahu’s forever war so he can stay in power, and the collateral damage is thus pointless from any perspective except that of keeping an authoritarian in power.
They’re not in the wrong because they chose explosives as their choice of attack against Hezbollah. Unless it comes out that their distribution of rigged pagers was utterly untargeted or something of the sort. Which I would not discount the possibility of, considering Israel’s history, but doesn’t seem to be the case according to what’s come out so far.
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If there were an anti-Russian militia that set up shop in America and occasionally attacked Russia and Russia figured out a way to target many members of this militia and a few innocent bystanders were also injured or killed, the rest of the world would say “yeah… that is what you get” and Americans would say “Why are we allowing these armed assholes to set up shop in America and attack Russia?”
You really believe this is is how it would play out? Astounding…
Lol, if there was an anti-anybody militia that sometimes acted against other states within the US. The US would raid their complex, set it on fire, and shoot people trying to escape.
Then, the government would blame the children and other non-combatants’ deaths on the militia. The public then will watch documentaries made on the subject over dinner.
Pager bombs aimed at extremists are not an American concern. Even if there was a level of non-combatant causilities. If anything, it’s a fun news blip of the week and will be forgotten in less than a month.
Thanks Broseph. I totally agree with your response. I was doing my best to provide a proper analogy to db0’s question: “If Russians did the same to Americans, you’d be all “fair play, mate”?”
I would say it was the Iranian Ambassador but apparently not, what do I know? 🤷♂️🤷♂️
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It is a huge technical operation to intercept an order and replace it with modified devices without the target knowing. Particularly when the target has to be extra careful in ordering things in the first place to avoid sanctions.
In contrast sending out an “execute order 66” message is pretty trivial to trigger them
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Not a ton is known, by from what I understand the explosives were part of a secondary board added to the pagers, which would also have the ability to listen for a separate signal or look for a specific one the pager received.
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Well, they had to make room inside for the high explosive charge, so it was never going to be a slight change to an off-the-shelf product. There’s not typically a lot of dead space in a pager.
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Is there data on what the payload actually was?
This wasn’t an interception. The devices were designed and manufactured by Israeli intelligence. They just licensed out brandnames through shell companies, and convinced Hezbollah to buy models from their agents by conventional spycraft.
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May have been done at the source of the manufacturing.
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I believe they triggers a cell in the LIPO batteries to overheat causing the explosive material to explode.
There are videos capturing lots of explosions going off simulataneously. Since pagers already can recieve messages and these devices were deeply infiltrated, they likely added a special trigger message to set them off. THis could also allow other scenarios, like only setting off one (for whatever reason).
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If they can plant explosives they can 100% tap into the circuit or maybe reprogram the board. The CIA is known to be able to do this to specific devices by plucking them from the mail. Mossad could likely do their own production run and ship that to Hezbollah.
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If they can intercept the message where it isn’t encrypted, they can simply sniff the messages coming on the page and wait for their signal.
Then, they can trigger the explosive to a specific message.
That’s a wild guess though.
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This is the point I keep making. Nevermind whatever else is happening in a war - but there’s no need to bring children into it. Whichever side does so - that’s the wrong side.
