From his first day in office—and every day since then—President Biden has taken action to strengthen American democracy and protect the rule of law. In
I mean, thanks to Obama, the president has the authority to kill any US citizen they deem as a threat. The ACLU brought a case against the government about that, but that case was dismissed on procedural grounds, so it’s still constitutionally untested. But regardless of it being tested, there is precedent for it, thanks to Obama’s murder of Anwar Al-Awlaqi. And since the precedent says that the murder by the executive branch of any US citizen it deems a threat is kosher, well that would fall pretty nicely under the heading of “official acts of office” that this latest supreme court case showed would be absolutely immune from prosecution.
So I guess the question is: does Biden feel like murdering a bunch of citizens?
Wasn’t that guy fighting for ISIS? Like actively engaged in the fight against US forces and killed in a targeted drone strike?
I’m all for Biden using his newfound kinghood to say, lock congress in their chamber until they vote the right way, but I don’t think your example is comparable.
He was alleged to be the leader of Al-Qaeda in the Arabian peninsula. But, of course, he was a US citizen, and the drone strike happened in Yemen, a country we were not at war with. So it raised a significant number of ethical and procedural questions. Also, we killed his 16-year-old son (who was also a US citizen) with a drone strike several days later, also in Yemen.
but I don’t think your example is comparable.
Well, that’s the thing. Precedent is a tricky mistress. Sure, Obama had what he considered very good reasons for crossing that line, but it set a precedent that any subsequent president could follow. It’s like how George Washington set the precedent for presidential pardons by pardoning two men who were sentenced to be executed for protesting a tax on whiskey, and then a couple hundred years later, Trump was just straight up selling pardons to people for two million bucks a pop.
The point is, what seems reasonable when justified by a good president could easily be turned into something horrible by a bad president. The precedent set by Obama is probably not going to be as narrow as: “the US president is free to order the killing by drone strike of any US citizen who US intelligence agencies believe is a high ranking member in a terrorist organization (or a member of their family), as long as they are currently located in a middle eastern country”, just like the precedent set by Washington wasn’t: “The US president is free to pardon anybody who is accused of protesting a tax on whiskey”.
You’re asking this question for no reason as the answer is clearly no.
And I don’t really think you’ll garner much sympathy for Anwar Al-Awlaqi’s “murder”. He left the United States and was orchestrating terroristic plots to murder innocent civilians in the United States. He was involved in two high profile incidents of terrorism as a commander for al Queda. Nidal Hasan’s mass shooting at Fort Hood and an attempted bombing of an intentional flight from Amsterdam to Detroit.
I’m not looking to garner sympathy for Al Awlaqi. But it is a really fucking bad precedent to allow the president to kill people with no oversight, and if you’re not sure why that’s the case, maybe think on it a bit.
Up until the recent Supreme Court decision there was already oversight. Al Awlaqi was deemed to be an imminent threat and his killing was authorized by the National Security Council which would include 10-20 other individuals with access to superior knowledge of Al Awlaqi’s actions and includes the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Director of National Intelligence, and the Homeland Security advisor. All people tasked with positively identifying imminent national security threats. The country he was seeking refuge in had even ordered him to be captured dead or alive. And if you’re questioning his involvement in al-Qaeda, he appeared in a video bearing al-Qaeda’s emblem praising the two prior mentioned terrorists and called them students of his.
I think you misunderstand me: I’m not questioning his involvement in al-Qaeda. But the fact remains that he was a US Citizen. Being a citizen typically entitles people to certain perks, like due process in a court of law. This was denied to him, which is why the ACLU took up the case. The state has the power to execute someone, but up until this precedent was set, it was only able to legally do so after they had been convicted in a court of law. Intelligence agencies do not fall under that umbrella.
The country he was seeking refuge in had even ordered him to be captured dead or alive.
This is entirely irrelevant to US law. If, say, I was in Bolivia, and the Bolivian government had an active dead or alive warrant on some US expat, it would still be a capital crime for me to kill that man on Bolivia’s behalf.
Fair enough. I just feel as though there are extenuating circumstances surrounding his specific case. I believe that his due process was rather not denied, but expedited due to his own behavior. His due process took place in a briefing room of national security advisors discussing what violence he could be capable of before international police were able to capture him. I believe that he knew that his status as a US citizen would shield him from military action for some time and would be willing to use that time to orchestrate further attacks on western civilians for as long as possible.
I liken it to a hostage situation at a bank. A group of people commit armed robbery and 2 of the 3 have killed civilians. So in response they were killed by a SWAT team. The ring leader is the only one left and is holding hostages in a room with no windows, but is able to communicate with a negotiator. The orchestrator tells the negotiator that he has no intention of killing people but is holding hostages to ensure his safety. There’s already been lives lost so how willing are you to allow him to negotiate an arrest without further casualties? He’s holding hostages with the threat of violence but hasn’t killed anyone yet. Eventually he is killed without incident by law enforcement and the hostages are brought to safety. Is that situation a denial of due process by a court of law?
Sorry, I posted something else, but upon reviewing it, I felt that I had to make some major revisions, so I just opted to delete the post and make a new one instead.
“Due process” isn’t really defined in the constitution, but it is mentioned in both the 5th and 14th amendments. Here’s the text of the fifth:
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Because it’s not explicitly defined, the Supreme Court has had to interpret what “due process” actually means. Here’s a breakdown of how it interprets procedural due process (process for civil and criminal cases):
At minimum, a person is due only notice, an opportunity to be heard, and a decision by a neutral decisionmaker.
This is a very low bar, especially when facing capital punishment. But in the case of Al-Alwaqi, even this low bar was denied to him.
I really like your metaphor about the bank robbers - it’s a very good comparison on the basis of similarity of imminent public danger. The thing is, though, police actually have certain rules about when they can use deadly force, and though they very, very often get away with it even in situations where no deadly force is warranted, they are still occasionally indicted for it. Like Derek Chauvin, for example. One of the guiding lines for when use of deadly force is allowed is when there is an imminent danger either to the officer or to the public. But even this is subjected to review. Granted, it’s not great review. But there’s still something. There is no process for reviewing governmental use of deadly force on US citizens with drone strikes. In fact, since most military operations of this type are classified, we actually have no idea how many US citizens have been killed in this way.
It seems like we mostly agree then. I only disagree with the term “murder” when it’s applied to Obama’s authorization of the strike that killed Anwar Al Awlaqi. That carries with it the presumption of unjust killing that was being pushed by Republicans in the run-up to a 2016 election. It ended up being one of the few criticisms of Obama’s time in office(in my opinion). Would I have liked him to take a more hardline stance on his Supreme Court appointment in 2016 and pressured RBG to step down prior to 2016? Yes. And would I have wanted him to put the nails to Republicans to get ACA though with minimal changes? Yes. But overall I felt that in the 8 years he was president we moved forward as a society.
Its not a perfect system, I’m aware. I actually wish that the SC would have taken up the case so we could have a ruling, but I do believe that this particular closed-door meeting constitutes due process. I think its an unfortunate concession to feel more protected from terroristic action, but necessary. I would feel way more comfortable if the term “public danger” could only be applied to specific individuals rather than broad descriptions(like the one you referenced from Trump). And could only be applied by a committee of legacy members of the federal government shielded from presidential or political appointments. Then any killing carried out should be subject to increased investigation and review to confirm the justification. Any deaths or casualties deemed unnecessary can then trigger criminal actions against those that authorized them.
I only disagree with the term “murder” when it’s applied to Obama’s authorization of the strike that killed Anwar Al Awlaqi.
Yeah, that’s fair enough. “Murder” is a charged term. I prefer it because it emphasizes that it is an unlawful killing of a person, and I take issue with the denial of due process. I think it’s doubly applicable when it concerns the US killing of his 16-year-old son.
I would feel way more comfortable if the term “public danger” could only be applied to specific individuals rather than broad descriptions(like the one you referenced from Trump).
Yup. Shit like this is exactly why I’m so cagey any time new precedents are set, because things that could be justified in certain hands can be tyranny in others. I feel like a deep familiarity with the law and US history naturally leads to a certain paranoia, and for good reason.
It seems like we mostly agree then. I only disagree with the term “murder” when it’s applied to Obama’s authorization of the strike that killed Anwar Al Awlaqi. That carries with it the presumption of unjust killing that was being pushed by Republicans in the run-up to a 2016 election. It ended up being one of the few criticisms of Obama’s time in office(in my opinion). Would I have liked him to take a more hardline stance on his Supreme Court appointment in 2016 and pressured RBG to step down prior to 2016? Yes. And would I have wanted him to put the nails to Republicans to get ACA though with minimal changes? Yes. But overall I felt that in the 8 years he was president we moved forward as a society.
Its not a perfect system, I’m aware. I actually wish that the SC would have taken up the case so we could have a ruling, but I do believe that this particular closed-door meeting constitutes due process. I think its an unfortunate concession to feel more protected from terroristic action, but necessary. I would feel way more comfortable if the term “public danger” could only be applied to specific individuals rather than broad descriptions(like the one you referenced from Trump). And could only be applied by a committee of legacy members of the federal government shielded from presidential or political appointments. Then any killing carried out should be subject to increased investigation and review to confirm the justification. Any deaths or casualties deemed unnecessary can then trigger criminal actions against those that authorized them.
They’re not citizens if they’re Nazis, but murder isn’t the answer, let’s grab one of the for profit prisons the right so loves to build, in the middle of Oklahoma or Missouri and invite the traitors to stay a good long time.
I mean, thanks to Obama, the president has the authority to kill any US citizen they deem as a threat. The ACLU brought a case against the government about that, but that case was dismissed on procedural grounds, so it’s still constitutionally untested. But regardless of it being tested, there is precedent for it, thanks to Obama’s murder of Anwar Al-Awlaqi. And since the precedent says that the murder by the executive branch of any US citizen it deems a threat is kosher, well that would fall pretty nicely under the heading of “official acts of office” that this latest supreme court case showed would be absolutely immune from prosecution.
So I guess the question is: does Biden feel like murdering a bunch of citizens?
Wasn’t that guy fighting for ISIS? Like actively engaged in the fight against US forces and killed in a targeted drone strike?
I’m all for Biden using his newfound kinghood to say, lock congress in their chamber until they vote the right way, but I don’t think your example is comparable.
He was alleged to be the leader of Al-Qaeda in the Arabian peninsula. But, of course, he was a US citizen, and the drone strike happened in Yemen, a country we were not at war with. So it raised a significant number of ethical and procedural questions. Also, we killed his 16-year-old son (who was also a US citizen) with a drone strike several days later, also in Yemen.
Well, that’s the thing. Precedent is a tricky mistress. Sure, Obama had what he considered very good reasons for crossing that line, but it set a precedent that any subsequent president could follow. It’s like how George Washington set the precedent for presidential pardons by pardoning two men who were sentenced to be executed for protesting a tax on whiskey, and then a couple hundred years later, Trump was just straight up selling pardons to people for two million bucks a pop.
The point is, what seems reasonable when justified by a good president could easily be turned into something horrible by a bad president. The precedent set by Obama is probably not going to be as narrow as: “the US president is free to order the killing by drone strike of any US citizen who US intelligence agencies believe is a high ranking member in a terrorist organization (or a member of their family), as long as they are currently located in a middle eastern country”, just like the precedent set by Washington wasn’t: “The US president is free to pardon anybody who is accused of protesting a tax on whiskey”.
You’re asking this question for no reason as the answer is clearly no.
And I don’t really think you’ll garner much sympathy for Anwar Al-Awlaqi’s “murder”. He left the United States and was orchestrating terroristic plots to murder innocent civilians in the United States. He was involved in two high profile incidents of terrorism as a commander for al Queda. Nidal Hasan’s mass shooting at Fort Hood and an attempted bombing of an intentional flight from Amsterdam to Detroit.
I’m not looking to garner sympathy for Al Awlaqi. But it is a really fucking bad precedent to allow the president to kill people with no oversight, and if you’re not sure why that’s the case, maybe think on it a bit.
Up until the recent Supreme Court decision there was already oversight. Al Awlaqi was deemed to be an imminent threat and his killing was authorized by the National Security Council which would include 10-20 other individuals with access to superior knowledge of Al Awlaqi’s actions and includes the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Director of National Intelligence, and the Homeland Security advisor. All people tasked with positively identifying imminent national security threats. The country he was seeking refuge in had even ordered him to be captured dead or alive. And if you’re questioning his involvement in al-Qaeda, he appeared in a video bearing al-Qaeda’s emblem praising the two prior mentioned terrorists and called them students of his.
I think you misunderstand me: I’m not questioning his involvement in al-Qaeda. But the fact remains that he was a US Citizen. Being a citizen typically entitles people to certain perks, like due process in a court of law. This was denied to him, which is why the ACLU took up the case. The state has the power to execute someone, but up until this precedent was set, it was only able to legally do so after they had been convicted in a court of law. Intelligence agencies do not fall under that umbrella.
This is entirely irrelevant to US law. If, say, I was in Bolivia, and the Bolivian government had an active dead or alive warrant on some US expat, it would still be a capital crime for me to kill that man on Bolivia’s behalf.
Fair enough. I just feel as though there are extenuating circumstances surrounding his specific case. I believe that his due process was rather not denied, but expedited due to his own behavior. His due process took place in a briefing room of national security advisors discussing what violence he could be capable of before international police were able to capture him. I believe that he knew that his status as a US citizen would shield him from military action for some time and would be willing to use that time to orchestrate further attacks on western civilians for as long as possible.
I liken it to a hostage situation at a bank. A group of people commit armed robbery and 2 of the 3 have killed civilians. So in response they were killed by a SWAT team. The ring leader is the only one left and is holding hostages in a room with no windows, but is able to communicate with a negotiator. The orchestrator tells the negotiator that he has no intention of killing people but is holding hostages to ensure his safety. There’s already been lives lost so how willing are you to allow him to negotiate an arrest without further casualties? He’s holding hostages with the threat of violence but hasn’t killed anyone yet. Eventually he is killed without incident by law enforcement and the hostages are brought to safety. Is that situation a denial of due process by a court of law?
Sorry, I posted something else, but upon reviewing it, I felt that I had to make some major revisions, so I just opted to delete the post and make a new one instead.
“Due process” isn’t really defined in the constitution, but it is mentioned in both the 5th and 14th amendments. Here’s the text of the fifth:
Because it’s not explicitly defined, the Supreme Court has had to interpret what “due process” actually means. Here’s a breakdown of how it interprets procedural due process (process for civil and criminal cases):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procedural_due_process
Of note is this bit:
This is a very low bar, especially when facing capital punishment. But in the case of Al-Alwaqi, even this low bar was denied to him.
I really like your metaphor about the bank robbers - it’s a very good comparison on the basis of similarity of imminent public danger. The thing is, though, police actually have certain rules about when they can use deadly force, and though they very, very often get away with it even in situations where no deadly force is warranted, they are still occasionally indicted for it. Like Derek Chauvin, for example. One of the guiding lines for when use of deadly force is allowed is when there is an imminent danger either to the officer or to the public. But even this is subjected to review. Granted, it’s not great review. But there’s still something. There is no process for reviewing governmental use of deadly force on US citizens with drone strikes. In fact, since most military operations of this type are classified, we actually have no idea how many US citizens have been killed in this way.
It seems like we mostly agree then. I only disagree with the term “murder” when it’s applied to Obama’s authorization of the strike that killed Anwar Al Awlaqi. That carries with it the presumption of unjust killing that was being pushed by Republicans in the run-up to a 2016 election. It ended up being one of the few criticisms of Obama’s time in office(in my opinion). Would I have liked him to take a more hardline stance on his Supreme Court appointment in 2016 and pressured RBG to step down prior to 2016? Yes. And would I have wanted him to put the nails to Republicans to get ACA though with minimal changes? Yes. But overall I felt that in the 8 years he was president we moved forward as a society.
Its not a perfect system, I’m aware. I actually wish that the SC would have taken up the case so we could have a ruling, but I do believe that this particular closed-door meeting constitutes due process. I think its an unfortunate concession to feel more protected from terroristic action, but necessary. I would feel way more comfortable if the term “public danger” could only be applied to specific individuals rather than broad descriptions(like the one you referenced from Trump). And could only be applied by a committee of legacy members of the federal government shielded from presidential or political appointments. Then any killing carried out should be subject to increased investigation and review to confirm the justification. Any deaths or casualties deemed unnecessary can then trigger criminal actions against those that authorized them.
Yeah, that’s fair enough. “Murder” is a charged term. I prefer it because it emphasizes that it is an unlawful killing of a person, and I take issue with the denial of due process. I think it’s doubly applicable when it concerns the US killing of his 16-year-old son.
Yup. Shit like this is exactly why I’m so cagey any time new precedents are set, because things that could be justified in certain hands can be tyranny in others. I feel like a deep familiarity with the law and US history naturally leads to a certain paranoia, and for good reason.
deleted by creator
It seems like we mostly agree then. I only disagree with the term “murder” when it’s applied to Obama’s authorization of the strike that killed Anwar Al Awlaqi. That carries with it the presumption of unjust killing that was being pushed by Republicans in the run-up to a 2016 election. It ended up being one of the few criticisms of Obama’s time in office(in my opinion). Would I have liked him to take a more hardline stance on his Supreme Court appointment in 2016 and pressured RBG to step down prior to 2016? Yes. And would I have wanted him to put the nails to Republicans to get ACA though with minimal changes? Yes. But overall I felt that in the 8 years he was president we moved forward as a society.
Its not a perfect system, I’m aware. I actually wish that the SC would have taken up the case so we could have a ruling, but I do believe that this particular closed-door meeting constitutes due process. I think its an unfortunate concession to feel more protected from terroristic action, but necessary. I would feel way more comfortable if the term “public danger” could only be applied to specific individuals rather than broad descriptions(like the one you referenced from Trump). And could only be applied by a committee of legacy members of the federal government shielded from presidential or political appointments. Then any killing carried out should be subject to increased investigation and review to confirm the justification. Any deaths or casualties deemed unnecessary can then trigger criminal actions against those that authorized them.
They’re not citizens if they’re Nazis, but murder isn’t the answer, let’s grab one of the for profit prisons the right so loves to build, in the middle of Oklahoma or Missouri and invite the traitors to stay a good long time.