Mine is they shouldn’t have made the sequel series without George as a consultant.
Mine is they shouldn’t have made the sequel series without
George as a consultanta planMy hot take on the sequels is that the first one was a decent start, and they screwed up the whole plot from there. It had some issues mainly in dropping subplots, probably because what was intended to be followed up wasn’t thanks to different plots and directors.
It really did seem like they were just making stuff up as they went 😂
That’s not a hot take at all.
And plan = “Thrawn Trilogy”.
Or Rogue Squadron. Or hell, basically anything from the extended lore that isn’t about the Vong or the corellia trilogy.
They couldn’t, they already established that Space Whales hard counter Thrawn.
Beat me to it.
Honestly, saw the first one, and that was enough to not see the rest.
It’s the stereotypical “tell the rest of the story” lame crap today.
You want a HOT take on Star Wars?
I love it. All of it. Games, movies, shows. All. Of. It. Sure, I’ve got some critiques, but even the prequels/sequels are a thrill ride. I love Star Wars and I don’t care about some dork on the internet’s opinion on it.
This is the only hot take in this whole thread lol
My lukewarm take is that Star Wars has varied so greatly in quality from product-to-product, that any take that categorizes some of it as bad and some of it as good is a lukewarm, standard take.
Yes, most of these are standard takes.
A true hot take, one that I don’t share but take my upvote for your candor
Ah, the negotiator!
At this point, Star Wars is just a setting. The reason Star Wars shows/movies continue to be so divisive is because people expect the tone/genre of their favorite piece of Star Wars content.
For example, expecting to like Acolyte because you liked Rogue One is ridiculous. They have almost nothing in common. You wouldn’t expect to like Dr Strange because you liked Dunkirk.
Just because it has a Star Wars brand on it doesn’t mean it will be anything like other things with the Star Wars brand. Expecting that will lead to disappointment.
Just because it has a Star Wars brand on it doesn’t mean it will be anything like other things with the Star Wars brand.
I’m sorry, that’s insane.
I know it’s not a hot take but I’ll rant.
who the hell had to make Rey a Palpatine and Palpatine not die. that wasn’t epic, that was dumb af.
Darth jar jar would have been wayyy more compelling, funny, etc.
sometimes dead is bettah.
they could have gone a different route with snoke. he was the only compelling new guy and they made him the old guy. bahhh
I think they fucked up by wanting to give every movie to different directors, so in the second one the new director killed off Snoke. Then JJ Abrams somehow returned and probably had a story that required Snoke, but he was dead, so now Palpatine needs to be back.
Could have just made Snoke be the guy cloning himself instead of Palpatine. 🤷 It would have made just as much sense.
The original trilogy was awesome because George Lucas did not have full creative control. The editors (Paul Hirsch, Marcia Lucas and Richard Chew) prevented a new hope from being a complete dumpster fire. The prequels had too much George Lucas, and the sequels had too much … I dunno? Decisions by managers or something?
Anyway it seems The Mandalorian was awesome because it was a passion project by true OT fans. The franchise needs to wait for that type of project instead of just green lighting half hearted crap by folks trying to extract value out of star wars.
Great take but the Mandalorian was trash
Hot take? Obi-Wan doesn’t need to be on the high ground, the high ground just needs to exist within the battle;
Obi-Wan knows that when he has the low ground, he really has the high ground, from a certain point of view; see Diagram A.
Look at his battle record:
Maul: Has low ground, wins Example A
Dooku: No high ground, loses
Dooku rematch: No high ground, loses Example B.
Greivous: Has low ground, wins Example C
Vader: Has high ground, wins
Vader rematch: No high ground, loses
Obi-Wan with the high/low ground is canonically the most powerful Jedi. This is fact. Had Yoda not denied his request to battle The Senate with typical Jedi arrogance, Obi-Wan could have defeated Palpatine in the Senate building, which housed a variety of different altitudes; this was designed so that the Chancellor could always have the moral high ground in political debates. But Obi-wan didn’t fight The Senate, and Yoda soon learned that you can’t cleave the Sheev in a normal 1v1. It took the Tusken Raiders years of conflict against Old Ben Kenobi to grasp his superiority in terrain advantage, as you see them visibly flee in ANH when they realize he holds the low (inverse-high) ground; this was the optimal strategy against a near-invincible opponent.
Yoda is shorter than virtually every other fighter, which gives him a permanent low-ground disadvantage; however, his saber-fighting style utilizes a flipping-heavy technique in order to negate this weakness for a temporary window. You’ll notice that, after falling from the central podium in The Senate’s building, he immediately retreats upon realizing he is on the lowest ground. You’ll also notice that, while training Luke, he rides on him like a mount, to gain the intellectual high ground and accelerate Luke’s training. Example D . Obi-Wan’s defensive Form III lightsaber style synergizes with his careful military maneuvers; as he only strikes when prepared, he can always hold the strategic high ground. (The business on Cato Neimodia doesn’t count.) You’ll come to realize that this is why Commander Cody’s artillery strike failed against Obi-Wan, when hundreds of Jedi were killed in similar attacks. Cody failed to grasp the strategic situation, as the Jedi Master’s elevation was superior to his by hundreds of meters, making him virtually unkillable. (You’ll notice that all the Jedi killed in Order 66 were on level ground with the clones, thereby assuring their demise.) Had Cody taken his time and engaged the Jedi on even terrain, he would have succeeded. Obi-Wan subsequently retreated under the surface of the lake, so that he could maintain the topographical low/high ground. This is why Obi-Wan is so willing to fight against impossible odds to the point where he thrusts himself in immediate danger; when your probability of victory is 1-to-10, you have the statistical (and therefore strategic) low ground, a numerical advantage when you use your point of view to flip the value to 10/1 . Almost losing is, in Obi-Wan’s case, certain victory. (See Example E). In ANH, Vader proves his newfound mastery by engaging Obi on perfectly even ground. However, Obi-Wan intentionally sacrifices himself on the Death Star, so that he could train Luke from a higher plane of existence, thereby giving him the metaphysical high ground Example G.
Why was Vader so invested in the construction and maintenance of the Death Star? Because he knows Obi-wan can’t have the high ground if there’s no ground left. Image A. As seen through the events of the Clone Wars, Obi-Wan was known to be on friendly terms with Senator Organa, whose homeworld held large quantities of mountainous terrain, the perfect habitat for a Jedi Master. Grand Moff Tarkin was already in position to destroy Alderaan as a first target, as the distance from Scarif to Alderaan was too vast to reach between the escape and recapture of the Tantive IV, even at 1.0 lightspeed. Alderaan had been the initial target all along, as Obi-Wan with the high ground was the primary threat to the Death Star. How? Because a moon-sized space station would have some form of gravitational pull, thereby negating Obi-Wan’s zero-gravity weakness; Obi-Wan with the perpetual high-ground in a low-orbit starfighter would easily be able to fire proton torpedoes through a ventilation shaft, although the Empire was uncertain of the specific weakness of the Death Star planted by Galen Erso (who was a good friend).
A common misconception is the idea of a ‘prostrate position’ version of the high ground, wherein Obi-Wan lies flat on his back, giving him tactical superiority from his point of view. However, this strategy is futile, as for the high ground to come into effect, there must be a differential between parties on both the x-axis and y-axis to a moderately significant variation from both absolutes (Angles only a Sith would deal in). For Obi-Wan’s high ground powers to be in full effect, he must stand between 15 and 75 degrees (π/12 to 5π/12 radians) diagonal from his opponent(s) on any quadrant of the area circle; this has been dubbed the Trigonometric Perspective Diagram. (Diagram B). The total effect for conventional high ground advantage can be calculated via the MetaComm Equation, or f(x) = lim 0→x π/12 | 7π/12 5π/12 | 11π/12 Ʃ(x) (2tan(x) / 3sin(x) + (log10Δ)) * Φ
‘x’ refers to the angle of contact between the two parties on, with advantage being based purely on position on the Y-axis, as the vast majrity of force users base their perception on elevation rather than spacial relativity. Δ refers to distance (measured in meters) between units on the hypotenuse; distance has some effect in tactical advantage during typical skirmishes, but accurate values for Δ based on equipped weapon are not finalized. The power of gravitational force has great effect on the high ground; too weak, and the high ground holds no traction; too strong and the ground becomes the real enemy. Experimentation has proven that the high ground typically holds significant value between .8 and 1.4 β (Earth Gravity) with maximum impact standing roughly equal to 1.05. Pressure is equally important, as it is a surrounding force attached to gravity (the high ground has famously low impact in aquatic environments). Pressure(λ) is measured in pounds per square inch (psi), to be used as a gavity multiplier (or division if pressure is sub-atmospheric; a pressure of 0 would theoretically negate the high ground, due to the high ground not existing without gravity. This is merely speculation, however, as the gravity value still exists, thereby defining the high and low grounds). Φ (Surrounding Force) is a variable defined as β * 2.2λ , with no metric value assigned due to its singular application in the MetaComm equations.
In situations regarding Obi-Wan and his relativistic point of view, you must substitute the Quadrilateral MetaComm Equation (the Jedi Master function), f(x) = lim 0→x minmaxƩ (2tan(x) / 3sin(x) ) * (1.2)Φ [min = (|cos(x)| = 1) | (|sin(x)| = 1) + π/12 ), max = (|cos(x)| = 1) | (|sin(x)| = 1) + 5π/12 ]. The viable Φ field is expanded, as Obi-Wan has taken advantage of the high ground in so many different environments that he simply uses it more efficiently, and the min/max values apply due to his multidimensional point of view, evidenced by the Trigonometric Perspective Diagram. Additionally, the distance factor does not affect Obi-Wan, as spacetime can be perspectively compressed, giving him the ideal Δ value from his point of reference.
In conclusion, Obi-Wan abuses spatial relativity and Taoist doctrine in order to always invoke his high-ground powers. To properly analyze the strategic genius of Kenobi, one must hold advanced knowledge in Philosophy, Mathematics, and Calculus-based Physics, and be able to integrate these topics together. The impact of research in Obi-Wan’s mastery of the high ground ranges from military purposes to spiritual nirvana, although progress moves slowly (but this is actually a benefit, as it gives academia plenty of opportunities to publish studies, thereby giving us the scholastic high ground.) Most importantly, if you find yourself standing on the low ground- don’t try it.
Funny long text, but the highground thing makes sense. Maul was arrogant and either forgot about the other saber or was so confident he didn’t care. Anakin was arrogant thinking “I’ll use the same trick he did when fighting Maul, and I will win”.
The entire thing is about underestimating your opponent and thinking “I have the advantage, not him”.
In either case, he lost the strategical high ground. No good strategist is that arrogant (BTW genius move by Qui Gon, winning the metaphysical high ground and making the enemy lose the strategical high ground) or forgets about the locations of suspicious pitfalls or enemy weapons
Patton Oswalt Parks and Rec speech sequel just dropped
I’d love to hear your thoughts on the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise.
In my thesis, I will…
Wait what’s happening
Depending on which school of thought you adhere to, this could take anywhere between 3 hours or the heath death of the universe
Be aware tho, some people have suspiciously been falling over windows after the thesis statement introduction and we still don’t know why, but we are doing our best to investigate
Can you explain the math of the Millenium Falcon’s Kessel run record next?
The shouldn’t have made a sequel trilogy without coming out with a plan
That is the ice-coldest of takes lmao
Star Wars is just a formulaic fantasy story with a sci-fi coat of paint on it. The original trilogy was groundbreaking because of the special effects, and the story was entertaining enough to not distract from that. The other six films in the main storyline bring nothing new to the table, and are thus boring cashgrabs.
Thank you. I would even argue that Return of the Jedi wasn’t great either. I mean sure, it was beautiful and the Moon of Endor with its giant trees looked amazing, but the plot was mostly a rehash of the original (another Death Star? Really?) plus silly Ewok shenanigans that made the empire into a total joke.
Good point, that was the beginning of the decline already.
Those speeder bike scenes, though. >chef’s kiss< The rest of the film could’ve been Han Solo throwing up into his helmet and I still would’ve watched it.
The speeder scenes rocked, the few times I got to play the game on that in an arcade it was definitely closer to actually riding at death defying speeds in a semi open forest area, and it wasn’t a quarter game either if I recall.
The score with the final lightsaber scene makes it great as well though in my books. Without the same music it wouldn’t have worked nearly as well…though that’s probably the same for a lot of the scenes. As great as the movie is I can still just listen to the music on its own, used to even on vinyl back in the day, Dad’s soundtrack and my fisher price record player lol.
Should have been Wookiee ragings instead of Ewok shenanigans.
To tell any other story in the Star Wars universe, you must first retcon the Original Trilogy.
See, the Original Trilogy established that the “dark side” was a temptation for every Jedi. Like cocaine or meth for modern humans: addictive poison that gives a temporary rush of power.
That’s great for the whole spiritual, mystic, two-wolves-within-you conflict Luke went through. His victory was overcoming his shortcomings in the form of fear and anger.
But it’s actually terrible for any story made afterwards.
On the one hand, you can’t now make a story where, “maybe the Jedi were excessively stoic.” without also inadvertently making the argument that Luke was maybe… wrong?.. to conquer his emotions? It undermines Luke’s conflict.
On the other hand, you also can’t make the Dark Side totally evil without flattening Vader’s character. When Luke loses himself to fear in Episode 5 and to anger in Episode 6, he proves that the Dark Side doesn’t sink its teeth into you and control you permanently after a single moment of weakness. Even after losing yourself to the Dark Side, you can still observe how it is hurting your loved ones and then choose to pull yourself out of it, conquering your fear and anger in order to protect them. Exactly as Luke does for Vader, and exactly as Vader does immediately after for Luke.
Which means Anakin was just… one-dimensional up until that point. Weak. Too simple to be a protagonist. He wakes up to find he’s killed Padme, and yet still doesn’t turn his life around and learn to fight the temptation of the Dark Side? He hunts down and kills Jedi who had nothing to do with his fall, and yet never looks into their eyes to realize he’s fallen?
No matter how you look at it, it just… doesn’t work.
That’s why the prequels retconned the Jedi into something morally ambiguous. And why the sequels retconned them into a past that needed killing. It’s why the Clone Wars animated series turned the Jedi into a bureaucratically anti-emotion order. And why a lot of video games added lore where the Jedi actually committed genocide against the Sith. It’s also why pretty much none of these other media talk about the Dark Side in the same tone as the OT.
The second the OT ended, the Dark Side could no be longer a “temptation”. It had to became a faction. An unjustly vilified piece of humanity. An ethnic group.
Because you can’t have a “dark side” and have complicated, nuanced characters and extensive world-building: either A) the world will fall apart, B) the characters will be woefully inconsistent, or C) all of the above.
So every, single time you want to make new Star Wars media, you have to retcon the “Dark Side” essentially out of existence.
The main issue with the Force is that no one ever defined how it and the Dark Side work.
Not that midichlorian bullshit, but an explanation of why the Dark Side is powerful.
There are sort of fan theories as to how it works, but as you pointed out, those are undercut by the lack of consistency.
The original trilogy sort of hints at a workable mechanism.
First is the Light Side. You are borrowing power from the universe to do things. It’s not fast, but it is powerful.
Then the Dark Side, you are not asking. You’re demanding. You’re pulling more power faster than the universe can support. This is why hatred and fear lead to the Dark, because if your emotions are heightened you’re less likely to ask.
The Dark Side should also be corrosive to your own body.
Vader’s line that he was more machine than man. It should not have been a single injury on a lava planet, but a slow decay as he literally pulled the life out of his own body to fuel his power.
Palpatine should have been slowly decaying. Not one fight with reflected lightning.
But that’s the prequel problem. People can’t leave shit alone and have to explain every little detail, even if years are meant to go by between the prequel and the original.
My hot take is based on this idea.
The franchise should say to hell with canon and redo the prequels.
Anakin’s fall into the dark side should have mirrored Luke’s journey. Instead of a maudlin love story causing his fall, he is slowly corrupted by greed and power. Do it well, and it becomes an allegory for modern class struggle and the greed of the few as they gain power. The clone wars are between ordinary people about the legality of cloning as a technology. The Jedi are not generals and there are like 20, not 1,000s. Part way through Anakin’s training, Obi-Wan and him leave to enlist as pilots - Obi-Wan offering to continue his teaching in the space Navy against the Jedi’s wishes. Every time Anakin wins a battle, he’s ashamed of how good it feels to kill. Every time Anakin gets promoted on the space Navy for winning, he is ashamed of the feel of power. Obi-Wan isn’t blind to Anakin’s slide to darkness, but has too much pride himself to ask for help - failing as a teacher because he can’t tattle on his friend.
Ep 2 should be about Anakin coming to grips with his non-jedi like desires and accepting his fate as something not-jedi. Escaping from the Jedi order and running away ashamed and afraid like a fugitive. The Jedi hunting him down across the galaxy. A whole movie about this acceptance, instead of a 1 minute scene in Palp’s office. It would be an allegory for the tyranny of the majority, and accepting ones flaws. Ep 2 ends with Anakin finding Sideous stuck in hiding and starting his dark training (a la Yoda in Ep5)
Ep 3 opens to a reluctant Anakin and Palps nearly killing each other while doing dark side training (embracing death and power). They are interrupted by a Jedi on a mission to kill Anakin. The Jedi is killed off by Anakin at great physical cost to Anakin (starting his Darth Vader injuries). Anakin gets mad that the Jedi won’t leave him alone and finally commits to being a sith. This starts Anakin’s long quest to hunt down each Jedi individually. Each battle with the Jedi injures him further, requiring cybernetic replacements from each painful injury. The hunt consumes him and he is finally Darth Vader.
I’ve had this bouncing in my head for 25 years.
My idea for the prequels is this.
Expand the clone wars into an actual thing. Not that they were fighting with Clone armies. That’s sort of stupid.
No, the clones were of actual people, and the Jedi were the main way to tell if someone was a clone or not. I’m talking full on pod people situation here.
So, Episode 1 can be the initial discovery of the clones, and Jedi starting to hunt them. Introduce Obiwan who is a newly minted Jedi master. He finds Anakin who is a slave, but not a child. A young adult.
Obiwan then starts training Anakin.
Episode 2 would find that Anakin had been cloned. Obiwan or Padame or someone convinces people to accept the clone, and Obiwan ends up training them both. The original and the clone. Maybe the surviving clones are somewhat accepted into society, after the factory and controllers are destroyed.
Episode 3 is Anakin’s fall. He grows resentful that of his clone. The Jedi masters sense this and pass him over for some honor or advancement and Anakin starts to think that it’s because he was a slave which fuels the resentment. Padame and the clone grow close, which makes Anakin even more resentful.
At the height of the movie, the surviving clones are ordered to kill anyone near them in a mass suicide attack. Anakin’s clone, who has connected with the Force, does not kill.
Anakin murders his clone, thinking that Padame is dead, and then goes on to kill the jedi, thinking they’re to blame. Obiwan finds Anakin’s lightsaber, (he and the clone switched mid fight) and assumes the clone was activated and that Anakin is dead.
And then stuff wraps up so that Luke is born and placed on Tatoine.
I like it. You got the birth of Luke and Leia in a way I didn’t. I think in my head retcon, Padme doesn’t exist and Anakin sleeps around while killing and conquering (how he doesn’t know about Luke/Leia). That’s not great.
Wanna combine them and pitch Star Wars What If? to Disney?
Star Wars has been constantly retconning itself, from the beginning.
The first film was not really produced as “Episode IV”, it was “Star Wars”, a standalone film. It was a movie about a farmer orphan who goes on a swashbuckling space adventure with laser swords and space wizards. The good guys are unambiguously good, the bad guys are just bad guys. Everything is pretty much just as it seems, no secretly alive people, no secretly related people. Lucas may have had nebulous plans/hopes for follow ons, but they weren’t baked and the overall concept is standalone.
Then ESB came along and retconned the Skywalker family, and produced cliffhangers knowing there’d be a third film. However, I’m pretty certain that “there is another Skywalker” didn’t specifically have Leia in mind at the time, mainly because of how it’s handled in the follow up.
Then ROTJ came along, and that little tease about ‘there is another Skywalker?’ just a kind of casual “oh yeah, that’s Leia, and she’s your sister, and we are going to do absolutely nothing serious with that, just consider the matter closed even though they were clearly setting up for… something with that”.
A lot of things in the franchise have this feel. Like “Rei’s provenance is mysterious and significant” swinging in the next film to “the parents are nobody, parents don’t matter” and then swinging again in the last of that set of three to “just kidding, her provenance is very significant”.
There’s a massive amount of content created between the OT and the prequels. Most of it was pretty consistent.
“disney trilogy bad” is a cold take. its not a hot take if every nerd on the planet agrees.
anyways the last jedi is the only good movie in the sequel trilogy. the people who didnt like it would rather watch a correct movie than a good one.
The prequels should have started with the Clone Wars, covering more of Anakin and Obi-Wan’s relationship, with an occasional flashback to the earlier Anakin to fill in his past. Being a fan from the early years, I didn’t like the prequels that much initially, but the story grew on me after watching them a few more times later along with fan commentary over the years. What I do still think they suffer from is making Anakin’s fall too sudden, and if we got a better sense of how much he and Obi-Wan were brothers in spirit, the eventual fall would mean more. There would also be more room to develop the friction he observes with the Jedi Council, maybe even take things to a new level in why they don’t let him progress. I guess I basically see TPM as a wasted first part to better establish his character.
Watching the animated Clone Wars series makes the gap between 2 and 3 more palatable. You see Anakin grow in the force, but also see the darkness simmering. It also shows the cracks in the Jedi order and lays the groundwork for doubt in their unimpeachable wisdom.
Like, if you just watch the movies, Yoda is basically Muppet Jesus. Anakin seems like a petulant child refusing to eat his vegetables and jumps right to murdering children. If you watch the series, it colors in all the shades of gray.
The only good thing that came out of the prequels was the pod racing game on the Nintendo 64.
Now THIS is podracing!
The Star Wars universe is not interesting enough for all the TV show and movies being made. George Lucas is not Tolkien and the world building was fine enough for the original trilogy, but it’s simply too boring for more content. Tolkiens work gets more interesting as you learn more about the details. Star Wars is the opposite. The more information you get the less interesting it is.
Also the Jedis are just cops/soldiers. They are not inherently good.
I would say the 60 year period that all the movies occupy are not interesting enough for more content. Similarly to LOTR there are plenty of other time periods in which good content could be made but that makes it harder for Disney to cash in on familiar characters so they don’t pursue those options.
That’s more or less my take too. The world of the Star Wars universe feels huge and expansive, but in reality by the end of the original trilogy they had basically told all the interesting stories that were to be had about it. And even then, they were starting to run out of material for Return of the Jedi. They tried with the prequels, but as you say it mostly fell flat and ended up boring. The sequels started off more or less rehashing the original trilogy so they were at least entertaining, but that wasn’t enough for three movies and it turned into an absolute mess by the end.
Luke Skywalker’s story is a retelling of Nuada Airgetlám, the first king of the Tuatha de Dannan, in a sci-fi fantasy setting.
Because there is a cultural Zeitgeist about this even if it is not well known, it had a better well of mythology to pull from and therefore it had more impact than the sequels and prequels which were repulled from the saga of Luke Skywalker in the original trilogy.
I think the lack of depth for all of the movies since the original trilogy come from the fact that they do not tap into any other sources than their own source, leaving them all feeling hollow and sterile compared to the original.
Who
He was also known as Llew Silverhand.
Again, who?
Search engines are your friend. The information is out there Wikipedia has a lot of it.
No, I don’t care enough to look up and read an article some rando on Lemmy thinks is connected to Star Wars. You’re the one that brought it up; in a normal conversation it would be your responsibility to explain a bit.
Sucks to suck. It’s interesting and too much to include as a simple reply.
It’s boring and it sucks
That’s not a hot take. Millions will agree with you. Especially Star Wars fans.
I agree it’s now boring and sucks.
