Fuck Russia
If Russia withdrew their troops, there would be peace immediately.
If Ukraine withdrew their troops, Ukraine would be no more - and there’s no indication Russia would stop there.
Lots of LLM bots today. We may need to start verifying accounts :/
I don’t doubt this, but I haven’t personally noticed it before. Can you share more insight about what you noticed, so I can be on the lookout?
I’ve been noticing this a lot. There’s a lot more Russian support in all my apps. I really think there’s a concerted effort that is now being fully enabled by our current administration.
The US officially de-prioritized countering Russian cyber threats a few days ago. It makes sense they would become more emboldened
If Russia withdrew their troops, there would be peace immediately
That’s technically true. However, Russia uses military force in its sphere of influence for a reason, not solely because Putin bad (which he is, I’m a commie and Putin is fascist-adjacent at best).
Russia, like all big capitalist countries, wants to secure a sphere of influence in which it can do easy trade, influence the politics, and generally have support from these countries. The US does this for example with western Europe through NATO, and with less diplomatic methods by supporting coups and invading other countries. China does this through economic trade and through massive investment projects. Russia is in a weak position internationally, barely recovered economically from the dismantling of the USSR, and it’s surrounded by former soviet republics very much in a similar plane (barely economically recovered from the 90s crisis as a consequence of the dismantling of the USSR).
These post-soviet republics, such as Ukraine or Georgia, adopted capitalism (as Russia did) in a very quick and disorderly fashion, and the resulting oligarchs and capitalist owners ended up fumbled in a mix of pro-russian and pro-european/US positions.
The EU and the USA both exert pressure on these countries to try and bring them to their side. Being economically and politically stronger, they can use trade, diplomacy, intelligence and economic means to alienate these countries front the Russian sphere of influence. Russia, in a more precarious and weaker economic and political position, simply doesn’t have the means to maintain the diplomatic, economic and intelligence means to maintain these countries aligned to itself.
The war in Ukraine, much as the interference in Georgian and Romanian elections by the EU, mustn’t be understood as a struggle between freedom and oppression. It’s sadly just a struggle between two capitalist empires, namely Russia and US/EU, fighting for the control of smaller countries that they want aligned to themselves.
Once Russia doesn’t have the means to economically, diplomatically and through intelligence, to influence its former sphere of influence into staying by its side, the only option left is the military route. The US and the EU know this, and they keep trying to mess with Russia’s sphere of influence for gains to their empires. The reality is that there is no good side and no bad side: it’s just struggle between opposing empires.
So yes, technically if Russia withdrew its troops, there would be peace. But this peace would mean that firstly the surrounding regions around Russia, and Russia itself, would become colonies and vassal states of the western world. It wouldn’t mean “freedom” for Ukraine, as we can see by the exploitative contract for the minerals of Ukraine that the US offers. If you think the EU will offer something substantially less exploitative towards Ukrainians, you’re wrong.
Ukraine, sad as it is, as long as it remains a state between empires, will suffer the effects of both. And only socialism in Europe and Russia can offer a meaningful response to this.
- Russia was by no means forced into the conflict. They did it because Putin wants more power for himself.
- Russia has great diplomatic power. They managed to get a Russia loving president in US.
- If Ukraine falls, then there’s going to be some other nation that will be the ”state between empires”. Next will be Moldova. Maybe Russia is brave enough to take on the Baltic countries as well now when the future of NATO is uncertain. If that succeeds, then Poland will be next, and maybe also eastern Germany.
- Ukraine rejected the US offer because it didn’t offer any safety guarantees other than that Trump said that Putin said something. Why should Ukraine sign a deal that won’t end the war?
because Putin wants more power
They managed to get a Russia loving president in US
Holy moly “great men historiography” and “Russia is behind everything I hate” both in one single comment, that’s quite the feat. Great job firstly ignoring the material analysis and geopolitics of the situation and trying to explain history as “big man makes decision”, and then falling for the racist trope that the USA isn’t capable of electing a fascist without external interference, as if the US wasn’t founded in the fascist principles of the Lebensraum and slavery->segregation
If Ukraine falls
Ukraine will not fall. The objective of Russia in this war isn’t pure expansionism further to the west, it’s the imposition of its political principles and strategic desires in its sphere of influence. The Russian government knows it cannot control successfully for a long period of time the now (understandably) anti-Russian radicalised sections of central and western Ukraine, what it wants are concessions in geopolitical and strategic terms. Mark my words: the war in Ukraine will stop sooner than later, and after it, only some sections in eastern Ukraine will be annexed to Russia.
Furthermore your reasoning of “if this nation falls, there’s gonna be the next”, is exactly the way Russia feels about its geopolitical allies. In 1990, there was an agreement that NATO wouldn’t push beyond Germany, and that has been violated first with Poland and then with more countries. Why push a US-backed military alliance to the borders of the US-declared main geopolitical enemy? What consequences do you expect from that? Imagine a Russian-led military coalition pushing for the annexion of Mexico.
Ukraine rejected the US offer because it didn’t offer any safety guarantees
Regardless of safety guarantees, the resources of western Ukraine will be plundered by the NATO block, whether it be EU or the USA I cannot know, but mark my words when you see the economic situation of Ukraine in 2030
Really well explained in both your comments…
Mental gymnastics. Killing innocent people mercilessly is a problem, stop being an insane apologist for slaughter. Peace is peace.
OK, please tell me how the NATO block is any better in this regard, haven’t you literally just been witness to the most open genocide in history and NOBODY in the west did anything to stop it?
And only socialism in Europe and Russia can offer a meaningful response to this.
I mean maybe, but that’s utopian given that all socialism efforts so far where actually authoritan regimes using socialism as a label. We don’t know whether it’d help, we have exactly zero data points.
Regarding the Ukraine problem in particular and the situation of Ukraine during socialism in Europe, I have already made a comment demystifying some of the most pervasive anticommunist, russophobic propaganda. Please give it a read and show me your thoughts :)
If you think my solution is “utopian”, check out this data from OurWorldInData (hopefully a Bill Gates outlet won’t be suspect of tankieism or pro-russian tendencies for you) for GDP per capita in Ukraine since the dismantling of the Soviet Union. Ukraine never recovered its soviet levels of production and of quality of life for people. The USSR was no utopia, it was a very real thing, and it was materially and significantly better for Ukraine than whatever options exist now.
There wasn’t peace before Russia invaded. The far-right US puppet regime was slaughtering ethnic Russians in the east, and allowing NATO to move in troop and missile deployments to the Russian border.
Why would Ukraine behave differently after a Russian withdrawal, when they were escalating for 8 years prior to the invasion?
Arent your eyes watering? How can you even type? With putins cock jammed so far your throat? No gag reflex?
What is it about NATO & Israeli bots that causes y’all to so reflexively gravitate towards sexual violence? Is it part of the official training, or are y’all just like that?
You’re either a bot, a troll or just plain old stupid. Even if you’re just stupid, you’re not worth my time because I cant fix stupid, and there’s really no point in arguing with you.
Na just a MAGA trumpist. They are like that, their brains have permanently atrophied and they cannot understand information any more, they just keep parrotting their bullshit endlessly like a broken record.
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Fool me once, shame on me, fool me 20 times and I should sign away half my country’s mineral wealth for no guarantees and no gains…
If somebody fools you twenty times they are (best case scenario) literally Loki.
I dunno, there are a tonne of incredibly stupid and uncreative people who conservatives believe every day for years. The part about loki seems to be a statisical outlier not just “best case scenario”, ya know?
So what’s the alternative?
Edit: looks like there wasn’t an alternative despiteso many people beating their chests that there is 🤷♂️
https://www.rferl.org/a/trump-congress-ukraine-russia-war-tariffs-speech/33336730.html
Give Ukraine everything they need to kick the Russians off their soil. Tomahawks, F35s, a million artillery shells a week, etc… lift all usage restrictions with the exception of civilian targets and infrastructure. Once every square inch of Ukraine is back in Ukrainian hands full NATO membership and a Marshall like recovery plan.
Or assassinate Putin. As long as Putin lives Ukraine is under threat.
and infrastructure.
No. That has to go. The war will end a lot sooner, if there aren’t any bridges and rails left, the Russkies can use to ship ammo and cannon fodder.
I meant civilian infrastructure. So like power stations or shipping centers that handle civilian goods or subways etc… If it carries a single artillery round it’s fair game.
That’s unsustainable, brainless and unrealistic, who is going to pay and fight if the war continues for 5 more years, what about 10 more years?
Russia is importing North Koreans to fight. You think if Ukraine gets unlimited weapons the war will last 5 more years? What day of the 3 day invasion are we on now?
The only reason the war has lasted this long is because of the drip feeding of weapons. which was probably a ploy to extend the war and make defense contractors more rich. So yeah, end it quickly by giving Ukraine what it needs to win.
So, what’s your "totally realistic"TM solution?
Looks like I was right and there’s no other real alternative, which is why Zelenskyy did a 180 on the minerals deal 🤷♂️:
https://www.rferl.org/a/trump-congress-ukraine-russia-war-tariffs-speech/33336730.html
Theory that more weapons wins is based on Russia being overextended and not outproducing west by itself. Your point on “endless war being perfect US policy” is the right one. Wining a war is always terrible. It means an end to war, and just look at how sad everyone around here is about that prospect. That Ukraine could suffer far more destruction, as retaliation for the special weapons it uses for terrorism inside Russia, is far more likely, as is striking western nations as punishment for “breaking the script of a slow war of attrition with eventual Russian victory”.
ATCMS got Ukraine electricity sector destroyed, instead of winning. US can produce 60 per year.
Out producing the west by itself? Bwahaahhahahahaa.
3 times the artillery shells as US+Europe combined
Your propaganda bubble is not there to help you.
Weapons don’t win wars, people do, and Ukraine has a severe troops shortage right now that will only get worse as the war goes on. You can give them all the weapons in the world, if there’s no one there to fire them, they’ll still lose
That is fundementally wrong. Firepower absolutely makes up for numbers disadvantage.
if a hundred Russians, Norks and other Mercenaries and their vehicles get smoked in a battle by a single cluster bomb. Rinse and repeat
Guess India just lacked the manpower to kick out the Brits. Same with the Japanese and *checks notes, 4 American ships.
Weapons absolutely matter.
I never said weapons don’t matter, I said people do matter, and if the war goes on long enough then ukraine won’t have any to fight the war.
The weapon difference between colonial India and Britain is nowhere near that between Russia and Ukraine. This has become a war of artillery and drones, both sides have them and can produce them at scale. This isn’t some colonial era imperial war where one side has machine guns and the other has a couple muskets and swords.
Why don’t you look to more modern examples where overwhelming firepower and technological superiority was supposed to win a war, like Vietnam or Afghanistan. Hell look at Korea, China was able to force the Americans to a draw after it’s economy was in ruins after a decade of Japanese occupation and civil war while the u.s. had half the worlds production capacity. The Russian economy is leagues better then China was in the early 50s, and the u.s. isnt nearly as dominant.
These people are delusional, the liberation of Ukraine can only happen if NATO troops land on the battlefield. And we all know that means nuclear war.
It only means Nuclear War if Putin decides he’s ready to die.
its not a gaurantee he flips a switch and decides to unleash fire the second NATO starts shooting at him, good chance he scuffles off and cuts his losses, if the fighting is contained to Ukraine and the border, its not a given that he’d condemn himself and his empire to death over the wasteland that is the Donbas
And if you’re wrong and the war can indeed go on for 10 more years are you prepared to deal with the consequences of the destruction of Ukraine, potentially nuclear war and destabilization of Europe?
So you don’t actually want to talk solutions. I asked what is your solution? I will answer no more questions until you answer mine.
Russia does not have the capacity to fight 5 or 10 more years (unless the US backstops them). Ukraine does not need the resources to go 10 years. They need the resources to outlast the Russians. That is probably more like 18 to 24 months. It could be less.
In my view, that is not only affordable but quite inexpensive given the benefits.
Europe and the US have contributed about $250 billion collectively over the last 3 years (Europe has contributed more). That is a small amount of money for either of them. Most of the $120 billion the US counts as Ukraine aid has been spent on new weapons systems for the United States for the US military. The US builds themselves new weapons, sends Ukraine old ones, and counts the value of the old weapons as Ukraine aid. The thing is, most of these weapons would have been decommissioned in a few years without being used (assuming the US does not enter any major wars). So, the “real” cost to the US is actually far less.
Both the US and Europe not only can sustain their current commitment. They could easily increase it without breaking a sweat. I lay no claim to it but Norway alone has a $1.7 trillion dollar pile of cash.
In my view, the real question is who is going to pay for the aftermath of Russia’s continued aggression if they are allowed to invade Ukraine?
Was it cheaper to have World War II or to stop Germany in Poland or Czechoslovakia? What would we have done in 1945 if given the chance to do it again?
Perhaps you are right that it is unrealistic. That is more an opinion than a demonstrable fact and my opinion is no better than yours.
I am not sure I can agree that it is brainless. While that is also an opinion, there are lots to facts to counter that argument.
Supporting Ukraine no matter what it takes seems like the clear and obvious choice. I guess that is why it is what every country that matters is doing (except the US—now).
Do you have a better argument?
Looks like we’ll meet again here in a few years, after thousands more will die and more territory will be lost to argue again about how this war can hypothetically end, just because Zelensky’s ego was too big.
Don’t pretend like you give a shit about Ukrainian lives.
Don’t pretend like you give a shit about Ukrainian lives
That an ally offers security guarantees and support to rebuild after defeating their biggest military threat?
Give Ukraine back their own nuclear defense. Suddenly Russia can tolerate a neighbour who isn’t a vassal state and can make their own determinations about which pacts they want to enter into with other countries. Ukraine joins NATO and the EU. Putin burns in hell. AKA Happy ending.
Can you really not imagine an alternative?
I can’t believe that my point was proven in just a couple of days: https://www.rferl.org/a/trump-congress-ukraine-russia-war-tariffs-speech/33336730.html
Your point hasn’t been proven. OPs point was that Putin promises can’t be trusted. And without US putting force behind that promise, Ukraine is wise to be worried about such a deal.
Just because one alternative realized doesn’t mean there weren’t other options, better or worse.
Edit: plus, a peace deal is far from done, regardless which side you root for.
I see plenty of alternatives, just not one in which people stop dying immediately.
History teaches us that Russia cease fire agreements mean that fewer die immediately but that lasts a far shorter time than you hope for. In the end, even more people die than before when Russia resumes their aggression.
This is not a prediction or an opinion. That are literally dozens of historical events to draw this information from.
According to what you’re saying, the only solution is NATO troops fighting in Ukraine because we cannot trust Russia in any way, shape or form.
When are you willing to enroll to go to the front?
You have textbook RT talking points. It’s so fucking obvious you’re a russian asset at the very keast
Yeah bro, everyone who doesn’t have your specific world view is a russian asset. What, are you 12?
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What is there to negotiate? If all the russians leave ukraine, ukranians will probably stop shooting them…
Russia has always firmly opposed expansion of NATO, including the missiles and NATO troops that were lined up at their border with Ukraine’s participation.
All those countries that joined NATO, Their sovereignty doesn’t end where hurt russian fee-fees begin
if Russia doesnt like it, then maybe they should reflect on how they acted like savage barbarians to those people throughout history. Maybe they should reflect that they aren’t entiteld to an “Empire” or a “Sphere of Influence” or whatever they want to call it. Reflect on the fact that Eastern and Central europe are not pawns and slaves to a larger power. but nations with agency, hopes, dreams and goals.
but they wont, Imperialism, Warmongering, and Genocide are married to the current excuse of “Russian Culture”
Yeah like, instead of taking a hard look into the mirror why countries kept wanting to join NATO, or why the russian-bloc equivalent failed so much, LULZ WE JUST GONNA WALTZ IN NO NATO PLOX.
Ah, nevermind, they did discover why so many countries wanted to join NATO. 😂
If it was about their sovereignty, it’s weird that you don’t mind NATO attacking their sovereignty to install pro-western politicians through corruption or straight up coups. “Sovereignty” only seems to matter when it’s anti-Russian.
It’s not about feelings. There were many agreements for NATO not to expand. They did it anyway. There are consequences for that.
Please educate me. Which countries had pro-western politicians “Installed”
And if you’re already typing Ukraine, boy do I have a bridge to sell you.
With maybe the exception of Serbia, Russia has been antagonistic and Imperialistic towards Europe for CENTURIES. Theres a reason Russia finds itself fighting against most/all of Europe every century. You need only ask the butchered populations of Eastern Europe who found themselves as Russian subjects at any point in history. The only reason they were ever friendly with Serbia, was because the Serbs are like a microchasm of the same thing the Russians did. Mini-mes, if you will.
you want to scream America bad, NATO bad, fine. but remove both of them from the equation, it wouldnt change the fact that the continent distrusts Russia for a reason.
Ukraine, Georgia, Bulgaria, Romania, etc.
Oh boy
So if they installed pro-western politicians in Ukraine, Why was the president of Ukraine at the time of Euromaidan checks notes Viktor Yanukovitch? the Pro-Russian fraudster who was once removed from the presidency after having cheated in the elections. and even afterward, managed to ratfuck his way into a term later on in 2010. Only to get Impeached and removed from power By his own government after he ordered the Berkut and Internal Troops to use lethal force against protestors.
this tired argument of western coups against these ex soviet countries always forgets to address the fact that a couple of suspicious phonecalls in embassies doesn’t hold the same power as millions of people taking to the streets over a government doing something that is widely unpopular.
if the CIA and all these other groups people accuse of toppling governments were as competent as fiction made them out to be, Joe Biden would still be President, Putin would be dead, Russia would be a balkanized state, and the Ukraine war would probably never have happened, and if it did, it would have been over by now with a Ukrainian victory.
No, you’re describing the Maidan Coup, which was backed by the US to install a far-right puppet regime because they opposed Yanukovitch maintaining neutrality with Russia, and not bowing to US demands to block a lease on a Crimean naval base.
😂 Geezus some people are so far down the disinformation hole there’s fuck all ways to dig them back out, ever…
There were many agreements for NATO not to expand.
Oh were there?
That’s interesting, considering how controversial it still is whether oral agreements ever existed in the first place. What isn’t controversial is of course that being oral-only, they can hardly be binding or transactionary. That is to say, the failure was to never transfer these agreements - if they even existed - into writing, bilaterally as that’s how you’d have to do it.
“We didn’t agree in writing” didn’t seem to prevent a war from breaking the agreement.
NATO wouldn’t need to expand if Russia wasn’t constantly threatening their neighbors.
They’ve only ever threatened their neighbors during NATO expansion efforts.
I see you haven’t spoken to many people from Finland… Or Latvia… Or Syria… Or Chechnya… Or Ukrainians, for that matter.
You wanna name anymore western imperialist projects?
“Everyone who’s afraid of Russia (for good reason) is a western imperialist project”
Russia was threatening their neighbors before NATO even existed.
NATO existed before Russia, genius. It’s an anti-Soviet org.
The Soviet Union was still Russia. They’ve not changed their attitude since then.
Then explain this different government, economy, and borders.
Your immense historical knowledge seems to have missed the fact that Russia existed long before the Soviet Union, Einstein.
You’re proposing that this Russia is the same one? When did they re-establish the czar?
Complete horseshit. They literally invaded and installed a puppet regime in Chechnia, and there were zero NATO “expansion efforts” there. And that is just one example out of many.
They’ve only ever threatened their neighbors during NATO expansion efforts.
This is abuser logic. “If you would quit misbehaving, then I wouldn’t have to hit you!”
It’s an adult understanding of international politics. Aggression rarely goes unanswered.
“The United States should invade a country that might in the future join an alliance to help prevent the US from invading other countries as we have in the past.” Do you realize how fucking stupid your nAtO eXpAnSiOn propaganda sounds!?
I’m literally just plainly stating historical events.
…that just so happen to line up with the propaganda of the Russian invaders.
Facts don’t stop being facts when a Russian says them. If they’re factually stating the sequence of events, it doesn’t change anything.
Lies don’t become true just because you keep saying “facts”. The Russian propaganda (that you’re parroting) is the untrue part, not the events themselves. Ukraine defending itself against Russia before and during their violent, illegal invasion is not an “expansion” and has nothing to do with NATO. Full stop.
I would go one further. Ukraine trying to join NATO is not a valid reason for an invasion. In fact, I can’t think of any valid reason for an invasion. Invading a country is wrong.
Maybe Ukraine wants to join NATO because they share a border with a gigantic country that wants to conquer them.
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Lies aren’t facts, Einstein.
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You are doing nothing of the sort, you are literally just regurgitating Putin propaganda.
Except Ukraine was on their border and not part of NATO and other countries on their border are. NATO Then Russia invaded and took the Crimean peninsula unprovoked. Not a surprise that Ukraine wants NATO membership, and now Finland joined NATO because of Russia’s attack on Ukraine, doubling the NATO/Russia border.
Incorrect. The Crimea invasion followed a soft coup of Ukraine by the US, wherein they installed a far-right puppet regime. The following years, Ukraine allowed a torrent of NATO & US troops and missile deployments to be installed at their border with Russia.
Nope… you’re spreading bullshit. People got rid of a Putin puppet. Hope we do the same.
Where did you come up with this? At no time has the US or NATO had troops or missiles in Ukraine. Get your facts correct or say nothing.
“At no time,” when they’re there as we speak. So stupid.
My man, if we had US troops and missiles participating in the war, Kursk would have already been a proud Ukrainian city.
You really ought to take to news sources other than Twitter or Telegram. 😂
NATO hasn’t “expanded” in a long time, until recently when Sweden and Finland decided to join. A decision that was made based on the Russian invasion of Ukraine. So through Russia’s actions, two countries have decided to join an organisation that was made to opposed Russia.
Before that, no new members were accepted into NATO, even if they wanted to join, because NATO members weren’t really seeing the point of NATO anymore, and they didn’t see a reason to provoke Russia. That changed in 2014 when Russia invaded Ukraine for the first time, and annexed Crimea.
Last but not least; NATO doesn’t expand. It’s not a nation with borders that grow through conquest or subjugation. It is a defensive pact that the peolpe of a nation must vote on to join. And then the members of NATO must unanimously vote on letting the new country join. It is voluntary and democratic.
So instead of shoutong “NATO IS EXPANDING, GRRR!!”, why not ask yourself “why would Russia’s neighbouring countries want to join NATO?”
Completely untrue. NATO has been expanding since the 90’s.
Of course it has. Of course it has. I mean, if your dillusions help you find your happy place, who am I to judge, right?
Fact check me.
I’ve always plainly stated that if anyone comes within 2 metres of me, I’m going to stab them. What do you mean, I’m going to prison??!! You knew my rule. I’ve been telling everyone my rule for 20 years.
Do you think that NATO was planning to invade Russia? And if not, then WTF is Putin’s problem?
The primary mission of NATO is aggression with the Soviet Union/Russia. That’s the only reason it exists.
Why does Russia get to dictate what other countries do within their borders?
I’m pretty sure every country on earth would respond to a hostile force amassing troops & missiles at their border.
The fundamental difference here is between a sovereign nation pursuing defensive alliances versus an aggressive invasion violating international law. Ukraine wasn’t “amassing troops & missiles” at Russia’s border as an hostile threat - it was seeking security guarantees after Russia had already annexed Crimea in 2014 and fomented separatist movements in eastern Ukraine. National sovereignty means countries get to determine their own security arrangements, and Russia’s “security concerns” don’t justify violating Ukraine’s territorial integrity or dictating its foreign policy choices.
It’s not a sovereign nation. The US installed a far-right puppet regime in the 2014 Maidan Coup, which triggered the Crimea invasion.
Funny that folks who claim to support Ukrainian sovereignty don’t give a shit about them being under a western thumb.
100% found a russian shill.
No, I was just alive at the time. Even in the states, they were covering the Maidan Coup at the time. They just rewrote the whole thing later.
I’m not gonna be peer pressured into forgetting history I witnessed. 🙄
Yeah, no.
You’re definitely a shill reading straight from his playbook.
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Lots of propaganda today, seems like someone doesn’t like Zelenskyy or a strong Ukraine.
Slava Ukraine!
Demoralized Russians Go Home
Heroyam Slava!
Ukraine, Russia, the DPR and LPR signed a ceasefire agreement, the Minsk Protocol, in September 2014.[40] Ceasefire breaches became rife, 29 in all,[41] and heavy fighting resumed in January 2015, during which the separatists captured Donetsk Airport. A new ceasefire, Minsk II, was agreed on 12 February 2015. Immediately after, separatists renewed their offensive on Debaltseve and forced Ukraine’s military to withdraw.[42] Skirmishes continued but the front line did not change. Both sides fortified their position by building networks of trenches, bunkers and tunnels, resulting in static trench warfare.[43][44] Stalemate led to the war being called a “frozen conflict”,[45] but Donbas remained a war zone, with dozens killed monthly.[46] In 2017, on average a Ukrainian soldier died every three days,[47] with an estimated 40,000 separatist and 6,000 Russian troops in the region.[48][49] By the end of 2017, OSCE observers had counted around 30,000 people in military gear crossing from Russia at the two border checkpoints it was allowed to monitor,[50] and documented military convoys crossing from Russia covertly.[51] All sides agreed to a roadmap for ending the war in October 2019,[52] but it remained unresolved.[53][54] During 2021, Ukrainian fatalities rose sharply and Russian forces massed around Ukraine’s borders.[55] Russia recognised the DPR and LPR as independent states on 21 February 2022 and deployed troops to those territories. On 24 February, Russia began a full-scale invasion of Ukraine, subsuming the war in Donbas into it.
Make no Mistake: Russia is trying to destroy Ukraine since 2014. Russia is the agressor and needs to put in its place.
Russia is trying to destroy Ukraine ever since both of them were founded as independent counties. This is just a reiteration of what we’ve already seen in the russian empire and in the USSR. History is a merry-go-round and I’m getting motion sick of all the rotation.
Edit: typo
Goes back to the Russian Revolution at the very least, though probably to the the Russian Empire. Historical data send to suggest that the Russian elite will not accept anyone but Russian hegemony over the region. The Bolsheviks betrayed the Ukrainian Anarcho-Communists who had helped to defeat the White army because they wanted independent self-governance rather than bowing to the Bolsheviks’ authoritarian Central Council in Moscow.
This is just a reiteration of what we’ve already seen in the russian empire and in the USSR
Comparing the Russian Empire and the USSR is the most ahistorical thing you can possibly do. During the Russian Empire and for all of history before that, Ukraine was a people without a nation. Oppressed, without representation, without borders, without a right to education or even learning to read in their language.
The Bolsheviks, with their first constitution in 1917, granted the right to self-determination and secession to all peoples of the former Russian Empire, which Lenin referred to as “the prison of peoples”. Quite literally after Poland seceded in this legal fashion, the Polish government decided it wanted to return to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth borders, and proceeded to unilaterally invade Ukraine and part of modern Belarus. It was the Red Army of the Russian Socialist Federation of Soviet Republics, that fought off the Polish invasion and established a lasting Ukrainian People’s Republic for the first time in history.
This wasn’t without controversy: while Lenin argued for the right to representation and to a Ukrainian Republic within the USSR, others like Rosa Luxembourg argued for a united, more homogeneous sort of socialist soviet nationality that outgrew former nationalisms. It is partially thanks to Lenin that Ukraine ended up having its own borders, administration and representation.
I know what you’ll say: “but Holodomor! Genocide against Ukrainians!”. The famine of the USSR was a sad and unintended consequence of bad policy during the collectivisation/dekulakization process of the early 30s. Millions of people died both within Ukraine and without it, especially as well in Central Asia and southern Russia. As bad as it was, and as avoidable as one can argue it may have been, there’s simply no evidence of any intent of attack towards Ukrainian people, it’s not precedented by anything similar, and it’s not followed by anything similar in the entire history of the USSR.
In those decades and the ones to come, Ukraine would obtain and solidify its own nationality, people would for the first time obtain generalised literacy in their own language, the right to study in their language up to university level, a majority of publications (both journalistic and literary) in Ukrainian, and the very next president of the USSR Nikita Khruschchyov would be Ukrainian.
Attempting to construe a history of oppression of Ukrainians in the USSR is nothing but fictitious, anti-communist and russophobic propaganda, meant to create a divide between Ukrainians and Russians. There are clear geopolitical reasons to do so, and there are clear reasons why Ukrainians are very much afraid or simply hate Russians, because of the modern proto-fascist state that the Russian Republic has become. But creating a line between this capitalist country, the socialist USSR, and the feudalist Russian Empire, is simply an attempt to divide Eastern Europe further and to push Ukraine towards the EU and away from Russia. This point can be argued for without resorting to russophobic and anticommunist myths. We’re smarter than this.
Nah, USSR discarded socialism and communism the moment Lenin decided he didn’t like losing the elections, and Stalin made it worse for decades. There’s nothing anti-communist in calling out an authoritarian dictatorship for what it was.
During the Soviet times there were repeated attempts to homogenize (as you said) all non-russian ethnicities into one big Soviet mass, easy to manage and control. Russian language, culture and values were held as the supposedly communist ideal future at the cost of national identity, replaced by pretense of representation.
Not just Holodomor, but also forced relocations of Ukrainians, Belarusians, Crimean Tatars and other Eastern European ethnicities contributed to that.
So, maybe tune down on Soviet apologia in front of people whose parents and grandparents literally had to live there.
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i don’t know who needs to hear this, who in their right minds would see Ukraine as the aggressor in this war
the amount of Fascist, Jingoistic shitposting that favors either Republican or Russian propaganda on social media is STAGGERING. The people arguing for it are more concerned about bathroom gender signs, DEI, wokism, and a bunch of other made up stuff, and not only are they oblivious that their country is being taken over by a foreign aggressor, THEY ARE PROUD OF IT. Because “at least the Russians kill the gays”
We are in this position we are today, because Russia has been waging an information war against NATO countries for 15-20 years. and the seeds they planted during the days of Georgia and Crimea, are blooming into fruit now.
The free world is AT WAR with Russia, and for the time being, America has been conquered. Victory from the jaws of Defeat, for the Russian mafia
Trump is definitely aligned with Russia, but that’s very far from being conquered.
They dont need to invade to conquer. They already control the president. he just ended aid to Ukraine. He literally will not say anything bad about Russia. he is bought, paid for, and owned.
America is currentley, and indefinetely, an enemy of the free world.
They dont need to invade to conquer. They already control the president.
Yep. America is now, whether they understand it or not, a vassal state to Russia just like Belarus.
Trump’s support in Congress and the court is worrisome
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Which it didn’t, so why are we discussing a hypothetical scenario? 🤷
Putin has succeeded in stopping US aid to Ukraine, splintering NATO and isolating US from all its previous allies. That is very much Russian victory over the US.
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Exhibit A right here
do you remember what they said? By the time I looked at the reply, the account was banned
edit - I dont think I need to know, was able to trace some of their comments on another instance, dude is shreiking about free speech. one of those people who wants to spit vicious hateful bile but be protected from consequences.
people like that are lucky they have keyboards, they generally get punched / stabbed / shot for that kind of behaivor in the real world.
They, “justexit” spewed this crap:
So we must just support your piece of shit Ukraine because you feel its the right thing to do? fucking delusion using every single buzzword, that just shows how fucking insane you are dumb clown doesnt even know the definition of a fascist, clown world
Seems like they are losing (russia losing) after all.
Slava Ukraine!
they screeched and slurred their way into a ban from the platform, like I said, people like that talk tough behind a keyboard, because they’d face consequences in real life for saying that. ranging from a punch in the face to a slug in the brainpan.
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How about you follow your own advice from another comment and give up on your argument that you’re losing? This isn’t a video game, you know.
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I think you’ve called people “clown” at least five separate times in this post’s conments alone. I probably wouldn’t have noticed you if it wasn’t for the absolutely weird insult that you keep repeating. No one will take what you’re saying seriously if you don’t change it up a little. Go ask your boss at the Russian troll farm for tips on how to troll better online.
Stop clowning around.
The deal should be… All Russian troops get pulled out of Ukraine. Ukraine gets a lump sum of all seized Russian assets in foreign nations, Russia agrees not to move troops within 100 miles of Ukraine’s border without Ukraine’s consent. Ukraine agrees to allow and even assist civillain Russian services with locating and returning living and deceased Russians.
The alternative is we take the limits off of what targets can be attacked within Russia, and enable Ukraine to enforce the conditions as proposed.
I’d also like to add that Russia and the US give up their UN “super veto” power. I don’t think anything good and effective can come from the UN when a single country can just “nope” any UN proposals.
Veto power in the UN is a short for “we will use nukes if you do this”. The UN is not world government, it’s the organisation which task(among many less important things) is to prevent nuclear war.
Ah, that explains why India and North Korea have veto power.
As good as this comment is, neither has the range or targeting capability that the US does or that the USSR did.
The security council veto was designed to keep the US and the USSR at the negotiating table and off the battlefield.
Then why are all those other nations on the security council? Just seems like we only need the members with veto power at this point.
We would have a much more effective UN if only Pakistan stopped vetoing everything!
The US won the physical war but lost the soft war to Russia.
The US is being couped, and we need to dethrone them before it’s too late.
Zelensky confirmed it was 25 in his meeting with Trump.
The image describes 2014-2022. So it seems he’s had 5 additional sit-downs with Russia between 2023-2025.
At least someone is trying to make peace happen (Ukraine).
You can absolutely want peace and even agree to concessions to Russia to reach a sustainable peace, but this point is absolutely valid: there must be security guarantees, otherwise Putin will just use the armistice to rebuild its strength and attack again.
Oh, absolutely. We want peace more than anyone else, but giving putin a chance to regroup, pull more support together and attack again is not peace, it’s surrender
it’s surrender
That’s generally what happens when, you know, you’re losing a war.
Why surrender and let the invader murder with impunity, when you can still make him fight for every inch.
thats where we’re at. Thats been the score since Bucha. Because Ukraine resisted, both sides hate each other like Israel and Palestine now. every time Russia gets into a city, they rape and pillage, murder civilians on the street, torture and castrate POWs before murdering them, and flatten cities to the ground.
you dont surrender to that. you fight to the death. you have no choice.
Oh. And after I went to trouble of typing all that big wall of text in response to your other comment, giving you the benefit of the doubt of arguing in good faith.
Like all the guarantees before it, trusting the scorpion will only get the frog drowned.
As a disgusted American… SLAVA UKRAINE!
I’m sorry my country is acting so poorly
Security guarantees are nice but only if there believable. If the last 3 years have shown anything it’s that the west will not go to all out war with Russia over Ukraine. It may make putin more hesitant but if he calls our bluff a piece of paper isn’t going to change the fact that Americans and western Europeans aren’t willing to die for Ukraine.
There are already were security guarantees, and then the US and their puppet in Ukraine violated their agreements.
This ^^^ so much
Do not trust Russia, and do not trust the US under current administration, or while the GOP still exists. We in the rest of the world are ON OUR OWN and must band together against this push of fascism across the world. This is not a drill, this is not a joke. Fascism is again on the rise, as it was in the 1930s. We all know where that led, so don’t let it do so again!
Because memes aren’t journalism: you got any sources?
Memes aren’t journalism, but this is a meme community, not a news community. However, one could argue that this is not exactly a meme, so your point is fair.
I’d still like to get the sources. Otherwise, content like this is like disinformation spreads. Meme community or not.
With the time you took to comment you could have looked it up yourself, and then with a bit more time you could have posted the sources here. You’re consciously choosing to not be informed, and to do nothing yourself and expect random people to do work for you.
We’re talking about major recent history from 2014. Unless they’re 12, they don’t really have an excuse to be this ill informed for an entire decade. The time it took to comment is a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of their time spent in willful ignorance.
It’s OP’s responsibility to give sources on the issue. Don’t shoot the messenger.
Not in a meme community, that’s not the point of the community
You’re not a messenger, you’re whining because you couldn’t bother to Google something yourself
Would you argue the same way if someone would post libs of Tiktok propaganda here?
No, I’d laugh at you for doing so
And you could have done the same and posted it for the rest of us instead of wagging your finger.
Number of ceasefires: https://kyivindependent.com/zelensky-gave-trump-list-of-all-ceasefires-violated-by-russia/
Number of talks: https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-polytics/3784793-kuleba-ukraine-held-200-rounds-of-talks-with-russia-since-2014-but-that-did-not-stop-putin.html
The source for the meme appears to be a tweet from the Ukraine foreign minister. Zelensky has quoted similar numbers. These numbers are coming out of Ukrainian officials’ mouths and not 3rd party journalists and it’s not at all clear on how they’re counting since I can’t find easily any other sources.
Side note: with how bad Google is nowadays, people should never chide anyone else for being unable to locate a source themselves again.
“Russia violated all of the ceasefires and talks since 2014, but it is really important that the exact number is verified by 3rd parties.”
You dismissing the overall point by focusing on the absolute least important detail. If the number of talks and ceasefires is greater then zero and Russia has violated all of them, then why does it matter if there were two dozen or two hundred?
Because details fucking matter, that’s why? It matters even if the side I’m on is the one potentially exaggerating. Don’t you care to know that? Or do the facts not matter to you anymore?
Because when someone starts arguing that there were 33 violations and not 35 or something along those lines I know they are just trying to derail the discussion away from the point that matters: Russia has consistently violated ceasefires and that is why security guarantees are needed.
Researching “20” is hard. Israel certainly likes to claim that other side breaks ceasefires. There is usually an opposing narrative.
I agree with you about sources, but instead of asking and waiting you can search for them as well. I did a quick search for some of the information in the image and I got some results about 200 rounds of talks since 2014. Not ones I recognize so I can’t say if they’re legit or not but it only took a few seconds to get that at least that far.
I’m not OP, though. Not everyone will do the googling themselves and if you’re posting stuff like that, I think it’s a responsibility of the OP to supply the sources.
Otherwise, that’s the exact same strategy misinformation peddlers like LibsofTiktok use.
LibsOfTiktok, on the right, was effective. They are, apparently, much better at motivating people than you are.
Also, let’s not pretend you don’t just disagree with what is being said. Nobody asks for sources until it’s an issue somebody might pick up a sign over.
LibsOfTiktok, on the right, was effective. They are, apparently, much better at motivating people than you are.
I don’t get why you’re comparing me to libs of tiktok. Do I look like I’m trying to be an influencer to you? O.o
Also, let’s not pretend you don’t just disagree with what is being said.
I think it’s naive to take anything someone as biased as Selensky is saying at face value.
Nobody asks for sources until it’s an issue somebody might pick up a sign over.
Lol, first day on the internet, I assume? xD /j
Do I look like I’m trying to be an influencer to you?
You’re arguing with one. What do you think OP is doing?
as biased as Selensky
Ah, so you’re not impartial. Funny how easy it was to figure that out.
This isn’t disinformation unless you don’t believe Zelensky. Besides that, we’re talking about large scale violations.
If you go digging you’ll find literally 10s of thousands of violations, shit just look at this from 2017 https://osce.usmission.gov/on-russias-ongoing-violations-in-ukraine-12/
I suggest using a search engine.
This isn’t disinformation unless you don’t believe Zelensky.
yeah, not exactly the most unbiased source, I recon. If something is disinformation or not shouldn’t really hinge on whether you believe someone, btw.
Besides that, we’re talking about large scale violations.
So? Even easier to get sources, right?And even more suspicious that it doesn’t ring any bells.
The sources you supplied are literally participants in the NATO/Russia conflict.
I suggest using a search engine.
Pardon my French, but: Screw you.
Well the source is one of a number that document violations of the Minsk agreement. You don’t just need to read that one and it’s from 8 years ago I just grabbed it to show how long Russia has been ignoring their related ceasefire agreements. I think the source is relatively neutral but you are right it may have some bias, it’s about as neutral as English language sources come though.
I think this post may be off in interpreting or wording because Russia has had major violations of a number of treaties, notably recently the Minsk agreement but I think Zelensky is talking about 25 major violations not 25 separate agreements.
Regardless of all of that, Russia has a very long history of not honoring their truces and ceasefires and using them as a reprieve to beef up their military forces before continuing to fight.
Your French has been pardoned but fuck you too pal.
The source still is the US government, i.e. NATO. It can hardly be interpreted as impartial.
You’re touching on why “just google it” is a horrible advice: sources in english language will emphasize the western consensus who have a vested interest in weakening Russia and are in an active economical war with Russia. it’s really hard to find english speaking, impartial sources.
From what I found online, while the claims of “genocide” are blown out of proportion, Ukraine has still also violated the Minsk treaty by attacking Donbas.
I think it’s important to note that I don’t want to condone neither Russia, nor Ukraine. Even if everything is true about Russian minorities in the Donbas: I don’t think that being conscripted is too much better. But I also think that the Ukrainian state is using its’ own population as cannon-fodder to fight a proxy war for the west (if it weren’t a proxy war, the changing stance of the US wouldn’t be as big of a problem).
Fuck states. All of them. No war but class war.
What do you want me to say, that it’s clear Russia continually violates ceasefire for the past 20 years of various nation states?
Like idk you can go find plenty of sources that say that I’m sure some won’t be in English but you’re not going to ever find something from Russia themselves that says “yeah we violated this shit”
Whats wrong here? It should always be ok to ask for sources!
In this case the research is significant and it is reasonable to assume that avid readers here know the sources and need less research to respond quickly.
Here a quick overview:
Minsk Protocol (Sept 5, 2014)
Early on both sides supported militant groups with arms (e.g. the far right right Azov group for Ukraine and DPR for Russia), the governments did agree to a ceasefire, the groups didn’t care and both sides violated it numerous times. Ukrainian supported troops were shelling near Donetsk (Sept 20, 2014) and the DPR executed full scale attacks. https://web.archive.org/web/20141023221330/http://www.skynews.com.au/news/world/mideast/2014/10/23/ukraine-rebels-vow-to-take-back-cities.html
Minsk II (Feb 12, 2015)
Ukraine did shell Horlivka (March 10, 2015) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Horlivka , killed civilians; claimed retaliation. The DPR tried to capture Debaltseve right before the ceasefire and failed to do so completely before it came into effect. As a result fighting within the city continued and the DPR even claimed the ceasefire did not include Debaltseve. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Debaltseve so this was also violated by Ukraine too, but now we see a shift towards more Russian violations.
Later violations
The last violations where Ukraine can be assigned any noticeable role in are around 2020. Now that the military is more organized the troops do follow ceasefire orders more strictly and violations for ceasefires after 2020 can be nearly unilaterally assigned to the Russian side. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements (follow the links from there to more recent ceasefires)
So the image/meme is mostly true but also propaganda (as to be expected). I also do not know where the number of 20 agreements comes from. I do know/find details of about 8. Maybe somebody else can provide a list?
So in summary: The message is true. Russia and mainly the DPR troops they support can not be trusted to follow ceasefires as long as the conditions at the front do not significantly change.
I like sticking to the facts and do not agree with the presentation in the image, but at least its still way way closer to the truth than Russian propaganda. In this case sticking to the facts would even have sent the same message and not give the Russians any point where they can base their counterpoint on. On the other side differentiated and detailed analysis is not that well suited to steer up emotions and support for the cause.
Thank you, seriously. It’s really exhausting how much resistance you face when you try to question Ukrainian propaganda.
I absolutely agree on your point about misinformation. I was trying to hint that maybe none of this belongs here, despite me personally resonating with the “meme”. I guess I am just rambling, don’t mind me.
- “Opinion”
- Paywalled
Use archive.is to circumvent paywall.
Oh bother, you’ve upset the tankies, who totally haven’t just been Russian trolls the entire time.
