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Every single fucking time: THIS IS THE FUTURE UNDER COMMUSOCIALMARXISM!
endless pictures of current capitalism conditions, usually centered around homeless people
Yeah, it sure is a good thing we have capitalism to make sure that every person is taken care of and nobody gets fed to the orphan grinding machine.
I knew this die-hard conservative MAGA guy, and we kept having this argument. He would constantly point out the homeless camps in California, blaming it on their “Socialist policies”. I kept pointing out that California has more billionaires than any other state, has the 5th largest economy in the world, and if that’s not the model of a successful Capitalist state, then what is? His answer was Texas. I felt like bashing my head against a brick wall.
That dude was nuts, but at one point I wore him down and got him to admit that CEOs are useless at best, and evil at worst. And I swear to God, he said “yeah, companies should just get rid of CEOs and be owned by the workers who vote on how to run the company.” My jaw hit the fucking floor. When I pulled up the Wikipedia page for Socialism, he completely reversed course. CEOs were suddenly very necessary and good again.
He was so close.
I would never let him live that admission down.
Every day I’d be reminding him about what cognitive dissonance is, and that he was all for a policy change until he learned that the belief he held and was ACTIVELY ADVOCATING FOR aligns with an ideology that someone who makes a lot more money than he does told him to hate.
I reminded him quite a bit, but I cut him off during the pandemic. He’s also an antivax moron (big shocker, I know), and while I can’t prove it, I firmly believe he passed his Covid to a friend of mine who had a compromised immune system, and she subsequently died.
Pure versions of each have their flaws. Mixed-economics yields the highest quality of life according to the top ranking nations on the World Happiness Report. Nordic nations have the blueprint. We just need to adopt it.
Nordic nations is still exploitive capitalism.
And socialist countries had exploitative socialism. I think realistically it’s best to try and find a system with least exploitation balanced with best quality of life for the people.
Nordic nations have the blueprint.
They may be doing certain things right but do other totally wrong like forced conscription. Keep also in mind that they exploit third world countries like everyone else, their goods are made in china.
I would happily join the military in a country that actually cared for me. Thats something worth fighting for.
A country that cares for you wouldn’t force you to join the military and put you in jail if you refuse.
They wouldn’t have to force me, thats kinda the point.
Being forced to do it means that you must do it even if you don’t want to. You are forced to do it even if you are happily willing to do it, you have no (legal) decision on it.
I’m not sure what other sensible alternative there is for Finland than conscription. You can’t get around the geographical issues so you have to have some sort of sensible and credible defence. That’s why it has a very wide approval, even when the moral issues of it are recognized. NATO seemed promising as a guarantor of safety, until it lost that credibility (and Finland got in a bit unwillingly, after some recent events). Voluntary military was what Sweden did and it didn’t work well for them.
Actually funnily enough people are surprisingly supportive of expanding the conscription to include women. And that’s on equality grounds, which to many who abhor the idea of forced conscription must seem pretty wild.
I’m not sure what other sensible alternative there is for Finland than conscription.
What’s the alternative to slavery? How do we get our food without a slave forced to farm 14h a day?
Actually funnily enough people are surprisingly supportive of expanding the conscription
So supportive that if they refuse to go they go to jail.
What’s the alternative to slavery? How do we get our food without a slave forced to farm 14h a day?
I didn’t mean it rhetorically, how would you ensure a credible defence for Finland? It’s the big issue.
So supportive that if they refuse to go they go to jail.
I’m talking about polls lol. And by voting the people are giving their concent to the system. That includes us who are forced to serve.
And most people who don’t want to do conscription go to civil service. Working in a library, school, such things. For women the whole thing is voluntary.
I didn’t mean it rhetorically, how would you ensure a credible defence for Finland? It’s the big issue.
Allowing people to defend themself as they want and not forcing them into an authoritarian army with jail as a repercussion would ensure a better defense if you ask me. Drafting people by force only benefit the government and rulers not people.
And most people who don’t want to do conscription go to civil service. Working in a library, school, such things. For women the whole thing is voluntary.
https://www.thelocal.se/20190404/sweden-hands-out-first-jail-terms-for-draft-evasion
Allowing people to defend themself as they want
I’m not sure what you mean with this, what form would it take, some sort of militia or what sort of thing?
https://www.thelocal.se/20190404/sweden-hands-out-first-jail-terms-for-draft-evasion
That’s for Sweden. I’m from Finland. It’s a different country. Here’s an article about the civilian service/alternative service I was talking about: https://akl-web.fi/en/civilian-service/civilian-service (the article is from an anti-militarist peace organization so the language probably reflects that, they might have other takes you probably enjoy)
If you refuse both military service/conscription and civilian service and you aren’t found unfit for service or something like that, you might serve in a prison though. That’s true for Sweden and Finland. We call them “totaalikieltäytyjä”, “total refuser” or something like that. Pretty rare though, I think 2022 it was 1 person and most just got given a sentence and an ankle bracelet and served the sentence that way.
I think 2022 it was 1 person and most just got given a sentence and an ankle bracelet and served the sentence that way.
This reminds me of the lone person refusing conscription in israel and the propaganda dismissing the actual number of people ending up in jail.
“I’m not sure what you mean with this, what form would it take, some sort of militia or what sort of thing?”
Putting an electronic bracelet on someone who refuse conscription it’s a big giveaway of government true intentions: they want to have control on people. Being under house arrests or in jail is a limit to the ability to defend yourself, not being drafted isn’t.
The flaw is humans; we’ll corrupt any system.
I would say it’s the dominant western neoliberal culture that accepts corruption as an “Oh well what can you do” type thing. Not all cultures are so accepting of corruption. We need to start treating corruption as great of a sin as murder or pedophilia, perhaps more so.
But the orphan grinding machine has always been around! We can’t just tear it down, that’s insulting to all the people it ground up!
What’s crazy is my “liberal” family use this logic unironically.
You’re not wrong. Some systems are still better than others though.
We will also de-corrupt and fix any of them.
The fact that this still got 14 downvotes. Wow…
Edit: Also these BrainInABox and Cowbee communist apologists are really begging for a block or even a ban. Absolutely despicable. Might they be bots or trolls of somekind? They seem to have an awful lot of time on their hands.
You are in a fucking communist space. It will be you getting the ban
The USSR was the prime example for what happens when communism fails. The USA is the prime example of what happens when capitalism fails. Many of their mistakes are mirror images of each other.
Almost like the real struggle is between powerful greedy cunts and the poor no matter what system is used to fight them… Though one thing is for certain: capitalism further empowers the rich while socialism/communism are supposed to fight against their further acquisitions.
Everyone defending capitalism really sound like serfs trying to protect their king just because, “he fought off the barbarians once!”.
Pathetic how most commenters are arguing why communism is bad and not why capitalism is bad, when you live literally in late stage capitalism / fascism.
Every horrific thing happening under capitalism / fascism never seems to matter.
It’s a fine point you make, which communist countries (which aren’t a dictatorship in a trenchcoat) out there are doing particularly well?
Capitalism is not fascism, communism is fascism.
There’s a whole social psychology regarding perception management. If you want this idea to catch and snag more people, then substitute “the working class” for communism.
This also sets home the correct idea that we are in a class war right now. Most rules that don’t favor working class are intended to funnel more money up instead of to the people making the work happen.
Fucking labels. I have done the research on communism, socialism, capitalism, authoritarianism, Buddhism, taoism, etc.
Not a single real life person I’ve ever interacted with matches up with these labels. My personal experience with tankies (another label I don’t get besides being in specific dumb instances) almost messes with that but nah.
I decided that I’m a member of one place.
Humanity.
Capitalism is definitely garbage.
Labels are a real tool used to control and manipulate people
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Communism is when my uncle was killed for dissent. You want social democracy, not communism
The fact that this has 600+ upvotes is… major fucked up.
EDIT: the image is tagged “@proudSocialist”. Any “proud socialist” would know that socialism and communism are not the same… Wow…
EDIT 2: If this gets more downvotes than upvotes I will gladly leave Lemmy. Have at it. :)
Dictatorship killed your uncle not communism
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Every socialist/communist knows socialism is early stage communism.
We do not want social democracy, we want communism
Y’all have brainwashed me over the last decade. I’m thankful TBH.
I used to be a staunch ancap libertarian and now I’m a hardcore socialist bordering on communist.
I mean, Trump’s first term also had a lot to do with it. That was a shit show.
It’s crazy how much a grown ass man can change deeply held beliefs when forced to re-evaluate reality.
Its working great for China. My Baba stock fell 50% after the ceo criticized government regulation. But I’m told he was a greedy capitalist and it was for the greater good.
Every political or economic system I know of could work quite well, if all the participants of that system would come with the required charactetistics.
Capitalism could work, if no one was a reckless greedy asshole.
Communism could work, if no one was a powerhungry reckless asshole.Democracy could work, if no one was a reckless powerhungry greedy asshole. Heck, even a dictatorship could work, if the dictator was benevolent.
All of those systems are doomed to be exploited because they don’t take humans as they are and try to make the best of them, but because they always require some ideal circumstances, which are hard to achieve and are in practise not sufficiently widespread.
There are modifications to all of those systems, to make them work better. For example, humanistic capitalism. But still, there is no perfect system yet.
It seems that the best we can do is to create a system with self-correcting mechanisms incorporated, such that all the good and the bad of humans are taken into consideration, nurturing the good and reducing the bad. Democracy comes close to that, as it allows, discusses, demands and implements change and makes this process accessible for everyone. Still, it has it’s own pitfalls and I am not sure whether a single democracy exists that actually works well.
Hierarchy must be limited to mitigate greedy assholes from gaining power. Capitalism is inherently hierarchical. Seems like some form of anarcho-socialism or democratic socialism would work best. And the democracy part should be built in a way that prevents one party or group from gaining too much power; using stuff like ranked-choice voting or proportional representation.
Communism is when you get executed for having a different opinion than the great leader.
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I’m not disagreeing with you. Just noting the us isn’t immune to it either
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murica has installed a dictator. They’re not on the way. They’re there.
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Communism is an economic concept not political. Technically it is possible to have a democratic communist country
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If the strong government is democratically elected and represent the will of the people nothing wrong with that
Power corrupts and corruption leads to authoritarianism. The thing happening in america right now is a perfect example.
That’s why any system needs actual checks and balances. Ones that fully come back to the people, not just make more corruptable systems like the US has.
Marx literally calls for a genocide in his manifesto. It might not be political in your view, but communism is inherently a genocide.
Marx literally calls for a genocide in his manifesto.
Others have asked for sources. I know it’s not true. If Marx called for genocide, centrists would love him.
I posted a reply.
“He didn’t like existing systems of oppression. Therefore literally hitler.” is a shit reply.
Just like Nazis thought that Jews were oppressors. A shit reply is defending a genocidal maniac.
Imagine being such a bootlicker that you’re comparing the rich to the Jews in 1940s Germany.
It isn’t the boogyman you need to worry about, it’s the bougie man.
Communism isn’t the boogie man, but it does bring the extreme kinda poverty that cause millions of people to starve.
Communism is shit. Get educated.
Communism usually genocides millions and then fabricates famine.
And capitalism doesn’t? How much food are we wasting? How many people are dying of starvation right now?
Kirby does have experience with Marx.
Ia ?
How can communism deal with the food per total human issue without people managing that based on their own effort and resources and self-determinstion? Has the centralized planning leads to starvation problem been resolved now? I am not being sarcastic and am open to persuasion. Our current system is a disaster but it’s not clear to me how communism can deal with problems of motivation, allocation, and resource management to avoid mass starvations.
How can communism deal with the food per total human issue without people managing that based on their own effort and resources and self-determinstion? Has the centralized planning leads to starvation problem been resolved now?
Starvation that happens under capitalism never seems to count or matter.
Speaking of the USA and it’s food consumption, we waste an incredible amount of food. We grow food based on it’s profitability not it’s effectiveness at feeding people or delivering nutrition. Varieties are prioritized by their ability to stay “fresh” longer (or engineered) so that we can literally outsource farming to nations we can exploit on the cheap without the food spoiling on its way back here, by boat because that’s cheapest.
There have been attempts at things like centralized planning that were remarkably resilient to disruption in South America. If I recall, they managed to build a network, like decades ago, that allowed organizations within an industry to share information about production and stock, which allowed them to accommodate natural disruptions. I don’t know for sure if that covered food specifically, if I’m being honest. Either way, we’ll never know how long it could have lasted because we intervened and “convinced” the locals to adopt capitalism.
I don’t think there is a rule that “planning” or cooperation in production leads to things like starvation. Of course, anything can be planned poorly and if everything relies on a single bad plan there is the possibility that everything could go terribly wrong. Or things can just go wrong without any planning or cooperation, or because its not important to the owners of the means of production that people are fed - many people are malnourished and starving as we speak… Unfortunately, humanity has had very little opportunity to try centralized or cooperative planning because it threatens capitalism and established powers. I think if we did it carefully and learned from our mistakes centralized or cooperative planning could absolutely work. I have very mixed feelings and limited knowledge about China, and I am hesitant to believe anything due to propaganda war waged by both the CCP and capitalists worldwide. However, it seems clear that they have been prioritizing food security for a while. How are their rates of starvation and malnutrition?
To be perfectly frank, my biggest concern about real socialism is that it is hard to make sustainable. This is not because of inherent flaws but because capitalist powers and oligarchs will sabotage it at every opportunity. It’s been happening throughout history and humans have only gotten better (and even more subtle, if necessary) at sabotaging things. Look into how difficult it has been to allow the government to help people with programs or improve agencies that exist for that purpose… especially since Reagan. Now observe how quickly the current US federal government is being dismantled because those agencies we’ve somehow managed to create get in the way of profit.
Hell, our current world economy is incredibly intertwined. Our current trade war with China makes it clear that even if a country mastered food distribution, anything imported could just be cut off or maliciously priced to sabotage that achievement. Unfortunately, even if we tried to be food secure without growing food elsewhere the US can’t grow everything, and definitely not in the proportions we would need. Some of it, like coffee and tropical fruit, has to be excluded from the economy or imported… which leaves us vulnerable to manipulation.
Kirby would never say that!
He would say poyo
