• betheydocrime@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Man, I’m so tired of seeing “human shield” comments. We can’t trust Israel’s claims when it comes to human shields. They have a track record of lying about it. Check out what happened in the Great March of Return in 2021-- IDF snipers killed 185 unarmed adults and 35 children. Israel claimed each of them were being used as a human shield. However, “human shield” refers to civilian deaths when targeting militants in combat. If all those journalists, medics, children, and unarmed activists were human shields, who were they shielding? Killing that many unarmed protestors would be a war crime, if we bothered to hold a tribunal. Israel is using the fog of war today to make their claims seem reasonable, but just five years ago the IDF showed an undeniable pattern of killing innocent people then lying about it.

    Furthermore, if we’re going to accept Israel’s claims that Hamas is using human shields and their flawed definition of what a “human shield” is, then we also must accept that Israel uses human shields, too. The majority of their military bases are in densely populated areas. Their army broadcasts from a residential tower. The IDF’s main HQ is in the middle of a residential and shopping sector in Tel Aviv. Is anyone accusing Israel of using human shields? On the other hand, if Hamas were to level any of those military buildings in residential areas of Israel, is there any doubt in your mind that Hamas would be accused of war crimes?

    What this really is is a double standard. Israel uses the “human shield” defense for any civilian they kill in an attempt to give themselves international support under the color of law, but Hamas does not get that privilege and does not attempt to claim it.

    The purpose of laws for international war is to create a standard that’s applied equally to everyone. Israel (and the US, too) seems to think that standard only applies to their enemies.

    • SCB@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Man, I’m so tired of seeing “human shield” comments

      I, too, am tired of Hamas purposely encouraging civilian casualties.

      On the other hand, if Hamas were to level any of those military buildings in residential areas of Israel, is there any doubt in your mind that Hamas would be accused of war crimes?

      They absolutely would be doing this if the Iron Dome did not exist, and sometimes accomplish it even when it does.

      Quick reminder this entire shitfestival began with Hamas murdering over a thousand innocent people directly.

      • betheydocrime@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        If you honestly think this began on October 7th, 2023, then you should genuinely stay out of this discussion until you educate yourself on the last 100 years of history.

        • goat@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          i mean if you want to bring up Palestine losing two separate wars and thus losing their land, and Hamas refusing every single peace treaty (even though the West Bank accepted the terms), feel free.

        • SCB@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          This war most assuredly began then as 0 IDF forces were in Gaza for years prior.

          • TheDankHold@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            This is the manipulative framing people love to use but anyone with even a passing understanding of what’s happening can see how manipulative it is.

            You’re referring to Gaza which has been under blockade/siege since Israel withdrew. By framing it how you have you ignore the reality that even without a direct occupation Israel is crushing Gaza from a health perspective, a social perspective, and a financial perspective.

            Not to mention Gaza isn’t the only Palestinian territory. In the time since Israel began sieging Gaza, the West Bank has seen upwards of fifty Palestinians killed per year by Israeli settlers, all backed by IDF soldiers. This is in a territory without Hamas by the way.

            It takes some serious ignorance to act like Israel isn’t directly responsible for the abject poverty of Palestinians.

            • SCB@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              You’re referring to Gaza which has been under blockade/siege since Israel withdrew. By framing it how you have you ignore the reality that even without a direct occupation Israel is crushing Gaza from a health perspective, a social perspective, and a financial perspective.

              If Hamas wasn’t stealing from Gazans, and didn’t exist as a political leader solely for the purpose of denying normalization of relations and Palestinian statehood while enforcing a less secular, more extremist state, you might have a point here.

              Unfortunately for everyone, that’s why Hamas exists.

              • TheDankHold@kbin.social
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                1 year ago

                Why are you blaming an extremist militia for the circumstances that created them? Hamas didn’t exist before Israel started colonizing both Gaza and the West Bank. Not to mention the resources Zionists like Netanyahu funneled towards Hamas to help them get more powerful than the moderate coalition.

                If Israel didn’t have Gaza under such an inhuman blockade/siege Hamas would be just as equipped, yet average citizens wouldn’t be starving in the streets.

                To not acknowledge the direct hand Israeli military and government has had in causing this is frustratingly naive.

                • SCB@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  Why are you blaming an extremist militia for the circumstances that created them?

                  I blame terrorists for being terrorists

                  The Gazan “blockade” was also a response to literal terrorism. So is the fact that Gaza is not a country.

                  • TheDankHold@kbin.social
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                    1 year ago

                    The Gazan blockade happened after decades of literal occupation and colonization. Ironically enough Hamas was the reason Israel stopped stealing territory.

                    It wasn’t a response to terrorism. It was a continuation of their own apartheid policy under a more internationally favorable lens.

                    It sounds like you’re using the existence of terrorists to justify the conditions that empowered these terrorists. Which is asinine and circular reasoning. Why not blame the people doing everything they can to create the scenario keeping hamas in power?

                    Also, why do you think not being a sovereign state affects the fact that Israel is starving millions of people, a majority of them children?

                    It’s mind numbing the lengths people will go to downplaying the abuse of innocents and try to push all the blame onto them and the extremists that thrive in the conditions they live within. It shows a complete lack of humanity or ability to understand human nature, wrapping your judgements up in geopolitical narratives spun to keep you busy.

                    You stop an extremist group by showing those at risk that your group will give them peace and stability. Not by treating the entire region like criminals.

                    No matter what you say to obfuscate, collective punishment on this scale is unequivocally a war crime.

    • goat@sh.itjust.works
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      1 year ago

      oh man hamas are known for being very honourable regarding war crimes. we should defend them.

      • filister@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        No one defends Hamas here, but one Evel doesn’t give you the moral high ground to do an even bigger evil. I wonder in what world killing 1 civilian is condemned more than killing 10 civilians, destroying their homes, starving them and then telling everyone else oh but he killed this one person.

        Israel is supposed to be the side which should try to de-escalate, especially considering the military superiority they have. What we see is quite the opposite.

          • filister@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Definitely not by killing 11.000 people, destroying their homes, cutting their electricity, food, water and fuel. And mind you more than 4000 of them are kids.

            Oh and your math doesn’t work, Israel just updated the number of their casualties on 7th of October to 1200.

            But just out of curiousity, at what number of kids we can say, enough is enough, or only Israeli kids matter?

            • goat@sh.itjust.works
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              1 year ago

              Definitely not by killing 11.000 people, destroying their homes, cutting their electricity, food, water and fuel. And mind you more than 4000 of them are kids.

              Gonna need your sources for those claims. If they are the numbers Hamas are using, then I’m not going to believe that. I mean shit, Hamas said they didn’t do the 7th of October Massacres and then 24-hours later said that they did do it–not very reliable.

              Regardless, Israel has no obligation to supply the state that just attacked them with resources.

              Oh and your math doesn’t work, Israel just updated the number of their casualties on 7th of October to 1200.

              bruh i literally said that the numbers are changing often. If you want to argue that the casualties are way higher, feel free.

              But just out of curiousity, at what number of kids we can say, enough is enough, or only Israeli kids matter?

              None, no innocents should die. On the day, Hamas should never have attacked Israel, and Israel should’ve listened to Egypt’s warnings.

              • filister@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                On the other hand, if Israel had treated Palestinians respectfully the whole time, Hamas wouldn’t exist today. It is kind of naive to blame only one of the sides for this conflict. Plus, just looking at the numbers Israel had killed and injured historically way more Palestinians.

                They did so much wrong and I don’t see you condemning them about it. In a perfect world this would have not happened but it happened. You can check the human rights violations committed against Palestinians over time, Wikipedia, human rights reports, the UN, etc. but still Israel is playing the victim here, where they are literally the aggressor.

                • goat@sh.itjust.works
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                  1 year ago

                  Israel has offered Palestine peace treaties, even willing to make Jerusalem, the capital of their government, into a neutral zone. West Bank was for that, but Hamas responded by launching another terrorist attack. I mean, we can go back further and further in history, saying, “Uhm actually this is who started it”, and we’d be all day until we’re arguing over cavemen.

                  I don’t like Israel, if that’s what you want to hear.

                  • filister@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago

                    Ah yes, that’s why Jerusalem is now their unofficial capital. And seriously if you truly believe Israel is not to blame here you are living in a parallel reality.

                    Check Wikipedia or any other respecting human rights organisation what they think about the conflict and stop repeating your country’s propaganda.

                    And even if it was all Hamas fault, the military wing is 30K only and you already killed more than 11K believe it or not and destroyed a good chunk of civilian infrastructure and residential buildings, forcibly displacing people, which accounts for war crimes, which by the way are well documented.

          • betheydocrime@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Mind you, these are just current numbers, ever since the attack, it’s only been going up as they confirm more and more deceased or missing.

            This is actually false, and if you stopped to Google your claims before you posted a comment you would know that. It’s kinda silly that you posted incorrect info then asked someone replying to you for sources to back up their claims :)

            Israel Lowers Oct. 7 Death Toll Estimate to 1,200