I’ve been thinking about martial arts and how really it is useful these days since a lot of places will have criminals hiding firearms or in the U.S. some states have conceal carry.
Whilst it contains discipline and it is enjoyable to train in a club for, say Karate, I just think it might not be that useful in places where firearms are commonly held, all it really takes is for someone to take safety off, aim, pew pew and that’s it.
I suppose I probably get this thinking from kung fu where it’s seen more of an art form then actually being a serious bone breaking form of combat
If you want something that could actually be useful in real-life situations, pick up running.
Small technical error, you’re supposed to yell as you do that.
The science on how humans survived through some seriously apex predators tags this as the reason. We evolved to run, the Usain Bolts of the world not being rare back in the day, which is why we are even here, and now we’ve de-volved into a sedentary society where Usain Bolt is the only one.
It was never about our speed, it was about our endurance and persistence. There’s no point in history where we were the fastest creature in the local food chain, a deer or Buffalo was going to sprint faster than us, but when they had to stop to cool off or recover from the fast burn of energy, we were right there, right behind them, still coming.
It’s true we’re more like the T1000 from T2 than usain bolt. Iirc our endurance on land is unsurpassed by any other mammal
It was just one theory, backing his advice. We didn’t have the sharpest teeth or claws, but we could run away. And far better than our lazy asses generally can today.
Usain Bolt was faster than the hundreds of billions of people that came before him. He set a world record that still hasn’t been broken.
Define useful.
Will any martial art make it a good idea to engage in a street fight, ever? Will any martial art prevent you from getting shot, stabbed, or ganged up on and beaten? No. Your best bet is situational awareness and a keen sense of GTFO.
However, martial arts are physical activities. They involve precise movements, and allow you a safe space to build conditioning. All of that means that, even if the techniques of the specific art you practice are fundamentally useless in the situation, you’re going to be just better able to use your body effectively. Hopefully to run.
I’d say the biggest thing a martial art has over a traditional sport is conditioning yourself to take a proper hit. Beyond any technique, the first hit is usually the deciding hit in a street fight. Knowing what it’s like to be hit, and being able to not immediately crumble, go further than any technique.
My trainer always told me, even after years of training, that the first choice should always be running away instead of engaging.
100m hurdles and Parkour/Free Running are the greatest self defence.
I begun judo a few weeks ago. The teacher was clear: it may not be useful in actual fight, but we don’t fight often in the real life. But it’s great for your body, spirit and it will teach you how to fall without hurting yourself. And these things are way more useful than self defense.
I got up to judo brown belt as a teen and it has saved my ass countless times. Not in fights, but in silly ass falls. Having good instincts when falling is a lifesaver.
I had a few bike crashes: 2 times breaking the same collarbone + some head trauma. All of it could have been avoided by knowing how to fall, head first is bad, elbow first is bad and also chin first is bad. After learning how to fall I should also learn how to use a bike maybe 😅
All of it could have been avoided by knowing how to fall
That is so damn true.
I’m a downhill biker but I learned a bunch of combatives in the army so I know how to fall really well. My friends are always surprised when I walk away from a crash that should have broken something and all I have is a scratch on my shoulder.
My secret is just go limp. Tensing up is when you hurt yourself in a fall.
I just had a big fall on my electric bike this spring.
There was a brick sticking out of the brick bike path and I flipped over the handlebars into the street. It was the one day I forgot to grab my helmet leaving for work.
My hands got a bit cut up and my shoulder was slightly bruised, but I was completely fine! I only got a yellow belt in judo years ago so falling and basic throws are all I learned, but that probably saved my ass from getting a hurt elbow, wrist, or hitting my head.
Gods yes. Just the falls I’ve taken since becoming disabled that I prevented injury because I know how to fall safely would make the time spent training worth it.
The best physical training I ever had were: judo and working in the dish room of my college dining hall where the floor was always wet and slimy with food. Between the two of them, I never slipped again. When I saw an ice covered stairway or slope, I could go shooting down it with confidence I’d stay on my feet. Between the slippery floor while carrying breakables and knowing how to fall, falling was just not an issue.
Of course now I want me some of that “youth” back
Useful for what?
As a kind of joke, look at these senior citizen doing tai chi in the park, while many 80 years old can’t walk without a cane. Looks like pretty useful.
Judo or Aïkido will teach you how to fall, which may save you a visit to the ER if you slip on the street, and pretty useful again.
It’s also a fun way to exercise and stay in shape, so again, it’s useful
op mentioned the context is situations where firearms are used. so pretty sure they meant useful as a self defense method and not useful as a way of exercise
Get good enough and just dodge the bullets
Aside from how problematic the film is, I loved this as a kid!
That was some hilarious bullet dodging
Cool. Gun kata before Equilibrium.
tai chi in the park, while many 80 years old can’t walk without a cane.
As an aside, get someone to show you what they’re really doing when they’re doing Tai Chi. The muscle memory they learn is - when sped up - brutal and painful to others. It’s great how they hide it in a dancy movement class for blue-haired park-goers.
I’ve also met Fumio Demura at a seminar, and he comes across as just an old guy who wants to go fishing when he’s not teaching us to be damaging – so while they may look old and slow, there’s more going on.
Yeah people who don’t practice Tai Chi usually don’t realize that most of those movements they’re doing out there are slowed and exaggerated joint locks and throws. It is a combat training routine used as exercise.
Let’s be honest, most people who learn Tai chi as an exercise also don’t realize that it’s joint locks and throws.
Fair, a good instructor would tell you so though. Helps visualize the correct motions better.
Break falls are the only skill I’ve kept from my martial arts training, but it’s literally the most useful one.
Yes, but not for what you may think. Ritualized shouting and flailing is cathartic and great cardio. And when you’re doing it in a regular group, you don’t look as dorky (see: Line Dancing) and peer pressure will influence you to stick with it – and that’s the biggest failure mode of any workout plan.
Also, stretching is neat. Sometimes there’s meditation. Always there’s making noise and angry faces.
Somewhere, in there, you may learn two things: how to dodge something coming at you; and that you should always try to flee if you can, flee if you almost can, or negatively reinforce the person hurting you until they stop and then you can flee. The cardio helps with the fleeing.
And I can’t under-state the utility in fleeing. I’ve done the hi-ya, twirled a stick, played shooty-pow-pow and rat-a-tat; and, still, fleeing is the option with the best outcome.
This. Anyone actually seasoned in martial arts will back this up. Exceptions to this are trying to sell something.
If you have a history of getting into fights, then yes it’s useful. Otherwise you’ll basically never use it. However there are plenty of benefits even if you never use it.
- Strength
- Flexibility
- Knowing that you’re going to get hurt even if you win the fight
- Etc
Exactly. Martial arts will make you live longer, not because you can kick ass in a fight, but because it is generally a great way to maintain cardiovascular health.
If need to train for an unarmed fight, I’d personally suggest the 400m sprint.
What is the “meme” of the 400m sprint (best MA discipline btw), I’ve seen it popping up everywhere the past couple of weeks haha
Is that a thing? Or is it just Baader-Meinhof
Yes, it is useful because it make your body better.
Let’s give an example: Assume you are in the shootout. You have the gun, so they are. You are quick reflect because you are trained, which make you moving and shoting better than those weeb on high.
Another example: You hear a gun shot. You run for 2km without breaking the sweat. Because you are training to enduring and stamia daily, you can run for a while without tired.
But I think, reflexing, enduring and stamia are most useful when you are in danger. Just act fast, and run the hell out of danger.
I had a stroke while reading this
Maybe you need to learn martial arts
OP need to train for languaging.
Not enough data for language scrape
Because you are training for languaging and grammar daily, you can write for a while without confused.
Seriously, what started this wave of Grammar Nazism all around Lemmy?
Stick to the content, not the form.
I’m the grammar police. It’s my job to be a grammar nazi
English may not be their first language. It’s okay to cut people some slack sometimes.
only one?
With 6 months of brazilian jiujitsu training you’ll win an unexperienced person bigger than you at wrestling virtually every single time. You may still get punched in the face, stabbed or shot but if you need to go hands on with someone it absolutely is better to know BJJ / MMA / wrestling than not.
It’s a sport. It’s not meaningfully more useful than other sports.
If you want something that’s genuinely useful in a confrontation, give up the fantasy of beating people up. Every time you fight you run a very real risk of incurring permanent harm or worse. Instead, sign up for track and learn and practice how to run away really fast.
TLDR: fighting not good. Not fighting, good.
It taught me meditation and self-control. It made exercise desirable as an activity.
But for self-defense, many martial arts do teach techniques for disarming opponents. The range within a gun loses effectiveness against a trained, unarmed opponent is actually larger than you think. Not to mention that muggers tend to avoid “harder” marks like those in good shape or who move like fighters.
who move like fighters.
This is a big one. People who know how to fight can pretty easily identify other people who know how to fight. Just knowing how to fight will keep you out of a lot of fights.
I have done quite a few martial arts. Anyone who tells you you can learn X and fight against someone who is armed (knife or gun) is simply spouting B.S.
If someone pulls out a gun on you, give that person what he wants and pray you are not going to end up shot anyway.
If someone pulls out a knife on you, again, don’t try to be a hero: give that person what he wants. Don’t play hero, especially if the guy holding the knife seems to know what he is doing.
Martial arts are just a way to train your body and your mind, both trainings are valuable in and out of themselves. They will keep you calm in a tense situation, they may even save your life since no one wants to mess with a dude that keeps his cool. Ultimately, a street fight can be avoided just by looking calm and composed.
If someone pulls out a knife on you, do the same.
I know what you mean here, but the phrasing is hilarious out of context.
Always bring a knife to a knife fight
But if you have a tank, use it instead.
Op is Australian:
Yeah, I should read what I write before posting… 😉
I’m no expert, but I think basically unless it’s a one on one with someone who’s unarmed, and maybe inexperienced, it won’t help much. Every good instructor would tell you to give them what they want, or maybe run away if they only have a knife.
all of the “real” Martial arts from back before guns were about using weapons. those aren’t really practiced as much anymore because they’re all useless in the face of firearms anyway. why spend years training with a knife when the same time could be spent training with a gun. if combat effectiveness is your goal then you need to learn modern combat techniques.
that said, there’s plenty to be learned from it, and it’s not like it can’t help you in a fight. but as another commenter said, the real way to win every fight is by avoiding them. so really the best thing to learn is de-escalation and recognizing danger.
Useful for what?
You address a couple of things, so I’ll try to cover them in the order your post does.
Firearms and concealed carry don’t really have anything to do with hand to hand. You aren’t going to do much training in martial arts that specifically addresses firearms just because it’s not necessary. If you’re close enough to engage someone with a firearm, you’d use the same methodology to attempt to negate the firearm as you would any weapon of a similar size. If you aren’t inside ten feet and a gun is already pointed at you, you’re fucked. If you’re inside about 20 feet, and the firearm isn’t drawn, they’re fucked if you can apply any control to it at all because they won’t get drawn and fire in the time you can close distance as long as you’re in decent shape.
Doesn’t matter if it’s concealed or open carry tbh. If anything, a gun is easier to control than a knife, but that’s a tangent that’s not applicable here.
For me, and I’ve been shooting since I was maybe elevenish, I’m still not going to draw, remove safety and shoot fast enough to ensure a stop on someone inside of about twenty feet if they’re already primed to move. You might get the fast draw trick shooters that could, but they won’t be doing it from concealed carry.
Besides, you see a weapon of any kind, number one goal is escape, not fighting. The only reason you’d engage with a firearm user is if you can’t escape. Same with a knife, a stick, whatever. Fighting isn’t the goal, you don’t want to be fucking around trying to “win”. You do the bare minimum to gtfo.
Seriously, it’s not a factor in the practicality of martial arts.
Where martial arts is useful for the average person that’s maybe gong to use the training in self defense once or twice in their entire life is in being prepared for trouble. You train, and it’s good exercise. You develop a sense of how your body works in motion related to another person. You learn how to react to pressure (with a caveat I’ll cover in a bit). You learn how to take hits, how to judge distance and how to close distance. And that is true for any training that isn’t just katas, even systems like aikido or judo that aren’t meant to be self defense as a primary focus.
Now, the caveat to that is sparring. If you never, ever do any training with a partner that’s resisting your effort, it’s just fun exercise. That’s where aikido usually fails, the near total lack of actual resistance while training with a partner. But the basic techniques if you do resistant training and toss the stuff that doesn’t work are literally bone breaking even with aikido, and it’s as gentle as it gets.
The problem with kung fu, karate, or any traditional martial art is the training not including live, resistant sparring. Even systems like mma that’s had the ineffective stuff removed, if you don’t train against someone that’s working against you in a realistic way, it’s just fun exercise. But there are “styles” of pretty much all of the name checked systems that feature live sparring.
But, in real world scenarios, if you do that training, if you spend the time repeating a technique against a resistive partner, you won’t have to try and use it. You’ll just react. And that’s how martial arts are useful in self defense scenarios. Instead of having to see an attack, decide what to do against it, then make the attempt, you detect the incoming attack, and you’re responding without any conscious decision. You basically taught yourself a trick the same way Pavlov taught the dogs to drool to a bell. That’s a gross oversimplification, but it’s good enough for this.
Now, it takes time to reach that automatical response. That time also takes money most of the time (unless you know someone willing to train you for free, and good luck with that). So whether or not you want to invest that time solely for the chance you might need it, that’s another tangent.
But, if you do choose to train, that’s why it helps to get something other than just the fighting out of it. The fitness, the fun, the camaraderie, the self discipline, the self awareness, the pain tolerance, there’s so much you can get out of it, if you’re willing to put in the resources.
Now, the post references specific “arts”. But it doesn’t have to be traditional arts at all, or even eastern traditional arts. You can get all the same benefits from boxing, wrestling, HEMA, or any of the arts that developed outside of asia. And we’ve got mma now that focuses on full contact fighting, and has whittled away at the stuff that’s not effective for full contact sport fighting, which makes it pretty damn good for self defense overall.
Again, guns just aren’t a relevant factor in choosing to learn martial arts or not. Even melee weapons aren’t. The primary advice you get, even when training to counter weapons, is to not let yourself get into that fight in the first place. You run first, you try to deescalate, you keep situational awareness to hopefully never even need to run, any of the things that could avoid being close enough to the weapon to have to control it at all.
But, all of that is helped by training. Situational awareness itself takes time to develop.
And, yes, I’m kinda enthusiastic about the subject lol. But, as much as I love/loved martial arts, it isn’t for everyone. It isn’t necessary for daily life for the average person. It’s like an insurance policy where you pay in now, in the hope that if something happens later, you’ll have it covered.
As an example, me and my best friend are the same age. He has never been in a fight as an adult, never been mugged, attacked, or even threatened with something like that. Me? I can’t actually remember how many fights I’ve been in, but I was a bouncer for a little over a decade, and worked some really bad areas as a nurse’s assistant. If I hadn’t been doing those jobs, and I discount any violence because of them, I would only have maybe a dozen fights have happened.
Is that range of self defense occurrence worth the resources? It was for me, but it might not be for someone else.
Yes, absolutely! Mostly for exercise and mental health though.
For more practical styles, look at jiu jitsu, Muay Thai, MMA, and/or krav maga. Look for a teacher who has fought professionally or otherwise has practical experience. There are a lot of bullshitters out there who will happily take your money.
Also, keep in mind you get out of it what you put into it effort wise.
