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Wow, he’s the guy in the Matt Bors comic:
I had an argument with my neighbor a few months ago. He was dead serious that it’s the Democrats’ fault for making young men Nazis. His arguments were basically exactly what this comic is saying. If you tell someone that hating minorities is wrong, that just makes them hate even harder.
If you tell someone that X is wrong, that just makes them X harder.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactance_(psychology)
The use of more concrete, low-controlling language, and the restoration of freedom through the inclusion of a choice-emphasizing postscript, may offer the best solution to reducing ambiguity and reactance
This concept has a name. Cool, thanks, TIL.
Could you provide an example?
There’s lots. A pretty easy example:
Person 1: I like my truck Person 2: I prefer my EV, trucks consume too much fuel.
P1: trucks have to consume so much fuel because that’s what makes them powerful P2: but most people don’t need that much power, trucks are unnecessary.
P1 (feeling attacked, goes into a defensive mentality): I need a truck and lots of other people do too. (Continued rationalizations of why trucks are necessary) P2 (unmoved in their opinion): I still don’t think they’re necessary for the average person.
P1: (further rationalizations as to the everyday benefits of a truck) P2 (still unmoved in their opinion)
P1 successfully convinced themselves of the benefits of owning a truck.
This is will known to marketing too. Most vehicle advertising is not to get you to buy a (insert vehicle here), but instead, get those with (insert vehicle here) to be so proud of how great their car is, that they convince you to buy (insert vehicle here).
Oh I meant of your alternative suggestion. I definitely know that exchange lol
This is actually a very interesting psychological phenomenon. I’m no psychologist, but stretching what I learned from “how to win friends and influence people” to the extreme, directly opposing someone’s viewpoint generally forces them to defend it. By defending it, they rationalize the reasons why they adhere to the idea, and thus end up convincing themselves of their belief.
Your opposition literally only serves to force them to rationalize their belief, and deepen their belief in that thing.
It’s fascinating, but stupid. In my experience, the most intelligent people I’ve ever spoken to will always take opposition seriously, even if with a grain of salt. When struck with an opposing viewpoint, they usually inquire about it, asking the speaker to justify their position so they can understand why they came to this conclusion. The mildly intelligent will then use that justification to tear down the person’s belief in that system. The highly intelligent will then ask questions that cause the speaker to question their own beliefs.
But doing nothing more than asking specific and pointed questions about someone’s beliefs, I have seen very intelligent and clever people, get others to convince themselves that they’re wrong in what they believe.
Long story short, your neighbor isn’t wrong, but they’re also not exactly correct. The character of a person, IMO, is not in what they believe in, but how they react to adversity. Whether that adversity is political, intellectual, physical, or emotional; how you deal with difficulty is the content of your character.
If making people of color, LGBTQIA+ people, and women, equal, by granting them the same rights and freedoms as everyone else (including bodily autonomy, and the ability to live, vote, and marry who they wish), causes you to start to lean towards fascism, what do you think that says about your character?
You should have told them they shouldn’t support preaching abstinence then. As if they think that logic traverses throughout situations as such, it means they are trying to teach preteens to have sex
You’re not understanding it vor even trying to take it serious. No wonder voters are running ax from you.
If you constantly tell someone they are at fault for something because they are of a certain race, if you constantly deny them any of their achievements and say is because of privilege, if you constantly chastize them, don’t take them serious and ridicule them when they talk about their problems, they aren’t going to feel represented by and vote for you.
Voting for Trump isn’t a rational decision, it’s a emotional one.
You need to Figuren out where you went wrong so the elections became emotional instead oft rational.
Remind me who they were running as VP again? Was it another cishet white guy? Also maybe you should be the one trying to understand privilege instead of projecting your own insecurities onto the word. Cool flags though bro.
-signed, Another cishet white guy
please, I am a green-liberal.
But sure, go on and bitch around, being all cocky and passive aggressive about the problem instead of trying to fix it.
I mean, just look at it: You’re framing it in a way that a white cishet guy running for (vice-)president is a problem.
You are making fun of a person advocating for the troubles of young white guys. When in literally the sentence before it you were framing a white vice president as a bad thing. And then you’re wondering why they aren’t voting for you.
It is on the nose. Especially since I already typed it out for you in my comment.
Tim Miller of the Bullwark was just so pissed off by the audacity of “White Guys for Harris”.
When asked why, he would mumble something about White guys being for anything is bad and then he would hear how ridiculous that sounds and change the subject. I saw him do it a couple of times.
How do you reach out to people are who are addicted to faux-american outrage porn with a side helping of persecution fetish?
preferably you’d not let it get this far.
Or you can just cry around and watch the next batch of savable (saveable?) boys become radicalized.
There’s lot of these chuds on reddit nowadays
Replace “trump people” with “white people”, and you’re getting closer to how people on the right feel.
As a white person, I’d like to ask that you don’t lump me in with them in any way, shape, or form.
Thanks!
I grew up in the Seattle area. It was not until I traveled to the East Coast and South that I saw how fucked up people were. Other side of the tracks and blacks not welcome was all real.
Sounds like you ended up in the Bible belt.
Sorry, you’ve been sharing a skin colour with Stalin, Hitler and Leopold II since before you were born.
We’re going to need 1 whipping per year of your life, for atonement.
Some people are just that daft. They change or adopt an entire worldview simply because of one pet peeve they have.
Sure. People that get bullied fight back, and of there’s only one other team, and they’re naive, that’s where they’ll go.
Continuing the bullying doesn’t help.
The guy in the comic is not being bullied though, that’s the whole point of the comic.
Ya know, I think a lot of people miss the point on this. There are some real biggots that hate trans and yadda yadda, but the majority of joe everyman voter is really saying “im struggling to pay my bills and all you care about is peoples genders, and people who arent even american”. Is it true? No. But politics for most people is about feeling and emotion. There is no logic talk that will change that. You have to meet simple people at their level; you cant force them to reach your level and understand all the nuance. They are not capable.
Its imperitive that the left stop falling back on this rhetoric, over the economic issues that the majority of voters care about. And dont say “well this policy and that policy and…” They dont understand any of that. They need to hear that they come first.
“I put a fascist in power because mcdonals tripled the price on a quarter pounder combo”
-Typical 3x trump voter-
The thing is, the left ain’t doing shit for trans people. Kamala never said she’d do shit for our rights.
Conservatives are the ones who make this about trans people. I transitioned more than ten years ago - no one gave a rats ass in 2014.
I just disagree with most of this. We should never stop talking about the social issues. A lot of really outspoken Trump etc folks are out to distort and transform our country in oppressive ways, with no regard to economics. We must fight that.
This is 100% true and people here won’t want to hear it.
We lost and we lost BAD. I want to be reasonable and learn WHY we lost.
Just sitting here screaming how everyone is racists and sexist, is juvenile and will cause us to learn NOTHING.
However fucked up a vote for Trump was, it’s more damming that people chose HIM over our candidate.
Trump GAINED black and Hispanic voters, so just screaming racism ain’t it.
Fairly or unfairly, the Democrats are burdened with the baggage that they care more about identity politics and policing language than actually fixing anything. That’s what I’ve learned.
We’ve got a big echo chamber here, and most of the shit we discuss here doesn’t resonate with the majority of people.
We’re more concerned about people saying “unhoused” than actual homelessness and how to solve it.
I googled it so you don’t have to.
The 3 or 4 times I’ve heard someone use that word here on Lemmy to describe what they don’t like, they’ve been pretty up front that it’s about identity politics. IE they hate that trans people want to identify as a gender other than the one they were born with.
So this is making it look like they’re just putting “identity” into a bigger word and making it sound fancier.
That definition appears inconsistent with how that word was used in the tweet. What is the leftist version?
Trying to find ideological consistency in this one might be a fool’s errand, I’m sorry to say.
Oop is infamously a moron on the political side of the internet. Whenever leftist content creators want cheap and easy dunks he’s the go to because he’s big enough to be fair game and dumb enough that it takes like no effort without being so big his fans will cause you problems.
It’s identity politics, but smart-sounding!
Pim tool is not what you would call a “smart” or “consistent” person… I’m fact, person may not even be the best descriptor for them.
There isn’t one.
I bet dim tool the Russian fool says that every four years
There’s been a real shift in Silicon Valley, from Squish Neoliberal International Markets And Raytheon Branded Pride Flags to Based Trad Horny Catholic Gymrat Nationalism.
A lot of it follows the Zuck/Bezos/Musk arc. Tim Poole is getting dragged along on the undertow.
But the Russia shit is mostly because Russia has followed along with American Conservativism while Ukraine has been painted as Neoliberal. So much of this isn’t Trump following Putin but Putin following the Kochs and the Mellons and Murdochs.
Tim Pool got his start being a shill against the Occupy Wall Street protestors in 2010 and 2011, like many of the fascists we all know and hate, such as Stephen Crowder. The idea that he has voted democrat until now is such a joke it is practically an anti-joke.
He never actually says he voted Democrat before. Just that this is his first time voting republican. So he either didn’t vote or voted libertarian.
He kinda implied it though.
Of course he did.
Hey that’s newsdude Cody Johnston!
Always upvoty the Cody.
I hear AG1 is where he gets all his news powers
As long as it helps him to fight off the boar menace. Damn teleporting hogs.
And then proceeds to chug an entire bottle on the air for our entertainment.
It’s the explicit ‘He didn’t have to do that, ever, but y’all loved it’ that keeps us coming back for some warmbo news
Cody is rad. First encountered him and Katy Stoll / Some More News on the podcasts Behind the Bastards and Worst Year Ever.
I remember his rough early work on Cracked. Pleased to see the lad made good.
I bet Warmbo made him post on Twitter.
I don’t believe it’s your first time tim
Might be his first time voting
More likely the “president, congress, and senate” that’s doing the heavy lifting here IMO. If I had to put money on it I’d probably guess it was usually like straight R and then like he’d vote for Joe Manchin and be like “see I voted for both Republicans and Democrats”
You never know. There is recordings of Trump saying the economy does better under Democrats when he was a Democrat. Musk also was telling people to fuck off if they didn’t support the lgbtq community not long ago.
Dude has no idea what he’s saying and is just throwing labels around to sound smart. Hilariously, he might be outing himself as a racist too.
Tim Poole is so inconsistent with his own opinions that he regularly contradicts himself within the same thought. It’s incredibly cringe inducing and wildly frustrating to even hate listen to his show. He also does some really blaringly racist cherry picking for topics and constantly pushes the “crime is out of control” narrative with only anecdotal evidence. I utterly hate his show and wish he would actually face some repercussions for his Russian payoff (he won’t but I wish he would).
Theres more than one clip (I think by Some More News) of him stopping mid-sentence while reading as he realizes the article completely debunks the point he’s trying to make and passing it off like it still made his point.
That’s exactly it, and this tweet image was none other than Cody Showdy himself.
Well, White Supremacy is also the politics of identy, i.e. Identity Politics.
The Racism is the seeing of other human beings as defined above all by the genetics they were born with (i.e. race, gender, sexual orientation), the religious affiliation they got from their parents or the geographical location they were born in and then presuming things about them based on that (which is quite literally Prejudice), it’s not in which specific race/gender/sexual-orientation/religion/nationality you see as good/victims or bad/oppressors.
One is not any less Racist when, for example, the race whose people one presumes are “good people” is not White - the Racism is the making presumptions about people based on their race, so the specific races such a prejudiced person thinks are “good” or “bad” are entirelly relevant in determining if the one making presumptions is a Racist or not.
Ultimatelly, all such “identity” groups have good people and bad people, and when they’re in a situation with power and no accountability, bad people do bad things independently of their “identity”.
This Racism of the modern self-identified Identity Politics practicioners was made painfully obvious by how the Liberals in places like the US and Germany reacted to the Israeli Genocide in Gaza - for years they’ve been prejudiced about people based on their ethnicity whilst passing that shit as anti-racism because their list of “good ethnicities” and “bad ethnicities” was different from that of the traditional racists, and one of the “good ethnicities” in their worldview was Jews and when it turned out that the self-proclaimed representatives of all Jews - Israel - was led by some trully horrible people who were mass murdering people based on their ethnicity, out came the Liberals in its defense because of the ethnicity it claimed to represent (and often being very overt about how it was all due to ethnicity, such as how Scholz in Germany and Biden in the US very overtly stating their “unwavering support for the Jewish Nation”), and further making their prejudices and racism obvious with the ultra-racist claim that Israel represented the Jewish Religion even when many Jews said it did not, and the even more extreme racist accusations of anti-semitism against those demonstrating against the Israeli Genocide (imagine how extremelly racist you have to be to claim that being against Genocide is being against the Jewish Religion, which logically is the same as saying Genocide is a Jewish thing). These self-proclaimed anti-racists didn’t drop their support for Israel as anybody driven by principles would have done based on their actions, they doubled down on it and did it very overtly based solely on the ethnicity that country claims to represent, exactly like all the other Racists act.
This shit is no less Racists than supporting the government of Appartheid South Africa because of them being though of as White.
Anyways, the fairest and real Leftie take on unfairness and suffering is to correct the unfairness and suffering and go at it by descending order of intensity (i.e. start by going after the biggest ones), quite independently of the genetics the victims and perpetrators were born with or the “reasons” why some assholes - the tradition racists - go around inflicting pain on others: the action is that is wrong and must be punished and the hurt and harm to the victimed corrected and grabing the “logic” of the aggressor and twisting it around keeps the agressor’s way of thinking alive and hence the unfairness of treatment, and just moves the unfairness around rather than stop it.
There was a lot to unpack in what you said. A shit ton of you being upset over the situation in Israel and a lot of you trying to shift the blame.
I find it strange you attack the only people who would agree with you stances. Everyone I know who claims to be liberal is bewildered at what Israel has done. The conservatives I know approve of Isreal’s right to defend themselves at any cost.
Also that last bit about the oppressed becoming the oppressor is interesting especially when you see what happened in South Africa and Israel. The answer is of course to recognize and stop the cycle but it does often feel like a pendulum.
True, good point on Israel.
Liberal politicians are the ones who are “Relaxed about Genocidal ethno-Fascism”, whilst it makes sense that genuine Liberals (so, Liberal out of principle, not merely political followers), would also be against what’s going on in Israel if only because killing people is the ultimate reduction of their freedom.
I should have been more clear about meaning Liberal Politicians when I used the word “Liberal”.
I don’t actually think Identity Politics is Liberal, I think it’s something build on top of Liberalism by politicians, in the best cases out of convenience - it’s far easier to address certain things by reducing people to identity groups and then fighting for entire groups and/or passing measures that affect all of a group equally and it actually works up to a point - and in the worst cases just as pure hypocrisy and even greed - it makes for simple slogans that politically work well and are easy to sell, brings them votes and if a politician happens to be a member of an identity that person can advance their own personal upsides by claiming measures that benefit them are for the identity group (this by the way, is also how the Far-Right tends to use identity politics, only they use different identities).
That said you’re at the very least misreading my words on the whole “oppressed becoming the oppressor” - what I wrote is that all groups contain people who will do bad things when they have the power and no accountability. At no point did I claimed they were oppressed, oppressors or one of them who had become the other, much less part of “THE oppressed” or “THE oppressor”.
Sure, sometimes the tables turn and people who are themselves oppressed and members of a group containing mainly oppressed get power and then become themselves oppressors, but that’s not related to any identity and it’s not even needed that the whole group stops being oppressed, just that individual: it’s simply that assholes who are powerless usually risk a lot by acting as assholes, whilst people in positions of power can often act as assholes if they so wish and get away with it, so assholes will do it.
Further, there is no need for those people to be in a grand category called “THE oppressed” or “THE oppressors” - often assholes who behave meekly when faced with somebody with more power will behave as assholes towards those with less power: such double-face is a pretty common dynamic in schoolyard bullies or even company bullies (look to middle and lower level management to find those). Such people are both oppressed and oppressors - in other words, even at this level the trying to tag people as something isn’t helpful: both the oppression done to that person in the middle and the oppression that person themself does are wrong and should be stopped, and an “oppressor” tag here just muddles a situation were there are two wrong actions going on and the victim of one happens to be the perpetrator of the other.
Aka I got paid by a foreign actor under the table to push my audience further to the right.
Guys (et al), please don’t make fun of the dim fool’s name. It’s rude and frankly immature.
Edited: spelling
FYI, it’s “et al”
Thanks!
The supposedly “PC” left is full of fucking obnoxious and annoying brats who don’t know anything about morality, anthropology, history, political theory, and basic statistics. They demonize white men en masse incessantly and condescend to any who challenge their half-baked fan-fictions or propose some sort of nuance to their premises. Many of them base their entire personalities on their mental illnesses and grievances.
But I still voted for Harris because, fundamentally, that’s better odds of survival for the environment, unions, women’s autonomy, protections for whistleblowers, antitrust measures, counters to Russian and CCP aggression, and basically everything else that actually matters to the survival of the species and our federal republic. IT DOESN’T REQUIRE A GRADUATE DEGREE TO FIGURE THAT OUT, TIMMY, YOU BALD CUCK.
Adults don’t abandon their principles because of some dumbasses “on their side”. And by the way, Harris was a dogshit corporatist establishment candidate that I’d NEVER vote for if given different circumstances.
Man, I remember a video I saw like 7 years ago. Two black college students were reading the riot act to a white kid for having dreadlocks. Like, I get it, but pick your battles. That is not your enemy. The left needs to recognize when they’re overreacting because it just gives the right ammo for their nonsense gun. Because the voters the dems are losing, who barely pay attention, will have stronger reactions to trash like this than they have to nuanced defenses of bidens record in the post pandemic economy.
But the issue is that Democratic representatives get punished for the actions of a tiny subset of their voters.
Yeah, I know. Things shouldn’t be like that but they fucking are. I think I could have been more precise with my criticism. Instead of the left I maybe should have said msnbc and the type of liberalism it represents. I never watch it but I did during the election. It’s not hard to figure out why people hate them. These are the people who barely pay attention and not voting for democrats.
I would define it as “corporatist neo-liberalism”, which is the real enemy from within of what remains of the political left of the United States.
Two black college students were reading the riot act to a white kid for having dreadlocks
Wonder how would they react to this:
The earliest written reference of locks is found in Vedic scriptures, holy Hindu texts dating back to 1500BC, in which Lord Shiva’s hair is referred to as ‘jata’, a sanskrit word meaning “twisted locks of hair”. In almost all visual depictions of Lord Shiva, he is seen with locks of hair flowing past his shoulders or tied above his head in what is called, ‘jatamukuta’ (crown of matted hair). For devotees, Shiva’s hair is of such importance that the sacred river Ganges is believed to flow from his matted locks. The earliest archaeological evidence of locks is found in the mummified remains of Ancient Egyptians as well as from the pre-Colombian Incan civilisation in Peru.
https://www.esquire.com/uk/style/grooming/a34465402/history-of-dreadlocks/
One of the basic tenets of the left is also that you don’t need to be accepted/accepting. People who leave the left because someone insulted them didn’t get the message in the first place.
Are we talking about the same left that shits their collective kink diaper when: “Trump say mean thing on Truth Social!! He mean bad man!!”?
An insult and an executive order are two entirely different things.
Is Trump issuing executive orders on Truth Social?
Did Trump throw Biden out of the White House WWE style and claim the presidency before being sworn in?!
Cause I would love to see that! Obviously it’s illegal and he would need to go to jail, but it would be VERY funny!
Edit: Honestly, I’m not even sure what you are trying to argue. Just wanted to make some jokey jokes. My point is that you said one of the tenants of the left is that you don’t need to be accepted or accepting…except that this is literally the entire fucking platform of the left! You all even try your hardest to ruin the lives of people that AREN’T meeting your nebulous standards for “acceptance”. So I’m not sure what you are talking about.
Oh joy, Schrodinger’s joke. And you’re exploiting the ambiguous nature of English to pretend to misunderstand the difference in interpersonal relationships and state oppression.
Please just go away. You’re ridiculous.
Fuck him don’t bring his bullshit here
But definitely bring mista cody here
What’s really sad is that I see plenty of this among my community. They get mad at stuff that they’re willing to flip over other side just to get back at them or something.
