Anti-semitism used to mean “hatred of Jews”. Now it means “daring to question Israel’s murderous leaders”.
Also being anti-Zionist or anti-Israel doesn’t mean being anti-Jews. Those are two distinct things. One, being Jew doesn’t being being Zionish, second, being Israeli doesn’t mean being Jewish.
But the leaders of Israel would love us all to conflate the two, and always encourage it.
And a good portion of the community is enforcing that definition. I’m not sure they realize the extent to which that will open up a can of worms. For more than a decade Zionism was distinctly considered an extremist ideology that should not in Amy way be confused with Juedaism. It’s like saying Opus Dei represents the catholic people. It’s just a terrible propaganda move on so many levels.
It’s amazing that people question being an anti-zionist. It’s a straight-up fascist ideal. That should be the default setting of human beings.
It’s basically a giant Venn diagram. You can be one of these things, you can be a combination of them, you can be all three of them, and you can be none of them.
It used to mean negativity toward people/nations of Semetic languages. The morpheme ‘semite’ is outdated and no longer used for that group of languages either. All in all, it’s weird the word is still used and the context it’s used in is even weirder.
When antisemitism takes root, it is common for many to be in denial of antisemitism.
Also common to create a subset of Jews that it’s acceptable to hate to so that those that wouldn’t normally engage in it to be more tolerant of it. In the past it was made acceptable (by you know who!) to hate “Cosmopolitan Jews” so people would tend to look the other way on antisemitism.
Today it has been made to be acceptable to hate “Zionist Jews.” And now people that hate “Zionist Jews” are denying that antisemitism exists.
We’ve seen a marked increase in attacks on synagogues and Jewish owned businesses.
History doesn’t repeat itself, but it certainly does rhyme.
It never hurts to take some time to do some introspection on the feelings you have towards another ethnic and/or religious group.
Even if you don’t care for Jews at all and only care about Palestinians, consider how unlikely a movement will be if it’s considered to be antisemitic. Denying antisemitism instead of denouncing it isn’t really helping anyone.
Real antisemitism obviously exists, but most of what Israel is currently calling “antisemitism” is just “criticism of the current government of the nation of Israel”.
Are Israeli athletes government officials now? Being against Israeli athletes is not the same thing as being against the actions of the Israeli government.
What is this guy trying to accomplish by saying they aren’t welcome in France? They are there and he’s saying “they aren’t welcome here.” What is his goal?
Are you aware of what happened in the 1972 Munich Olympics?
Dude is edging on stochastic terrorism, but sure, he’s the “real victim” because someone criticizes his remarks.
Can leftists even hear themselves when they talk about Jews? Completely indistinguishable from certain other political groups. Probably how “National Socialism” became a thing. An unholy alliance formed over a common hatred.
Are Israeli athletes government officials now?
Near enough, yes. They are representatives of the government.
Probably how “National Socialism” became a thing. An unholy alliance formed over a common hatred.
Now you’re nearing schizoid levels of paranoia. Take your meds, bro
Sure they represent their country, but they aren’t government officials. You seem to be blurring the lines between government and country in a way that indicates that you don’t simply hate the actions of the Israeli government, you actually hate Israel the country. The next step down that path is to hate all Israelis.
Not a good path to be going down.
Now you’re nearing schizoid levels of paranoia. Take your meds, bro
Trivializing mental illness. Classy!
It is odd that this particular war is considered by many to be a leftist cause isn’t it? A war that started when Hamas (a fascist regime) brutally murdered people living in Kibutzes (socialist communes). It’s odd for leftists to to the side of fascists in this this one case and while normally being on the other side in other cases.
You might not want to admit that leftists have issues with antisemitism, but you can’t control how others see leftism. Personally I think it keeps popping up because of the old “greedy capitist jew” stereotype which creates an association between Jew and Captialists. This makes leftists predisposed towards antisemitism.
Being in denial of these kinds of things means you’ll never look at it head on. This hurts your ability to communicate your message on anything (whether it be leftism or Palestinian causes) because you’ll always be blindsided when people say “hold up, that seems a little racist to me” which devolves into you say “no it’s not” and derogatory insinuations about mental illness and such.
People will rightfully turn away from those espousing hateful rhetoric. If you can’t be bothered to put any effort into learning why some rhetoric is hateful, you will be have no influence on people that oppose hate speech and you won’t even know why.
Again, take your fucking meds.
In any case, here’s me literally saying “hold up, that seems a little racist to me”, dumbfuck: https://lemmy.world/comment/11429859
It’s possible to criticize Israel and not be racist.
If it’s okay to exclude Russians from sport then it’s okay to exclude Israelis.
If it’s wrong to exclude Israelis then it’s wrong to exclude Russians.
Exclude American then. What you guys did to my country was criminal
Which country? You’re gonna have to be a bit more specific with than that.
Exactly lol. That’s why I didn’t say, cause there are so so many that it kinda reiterates my point
Im gonna start with the guessing… chile?
You won’t say the country. Your country was always a shit hole. You just want someone to point the finger at for your own inbred problems.
Shut the fuck up
Username checks out
Agreed, America has been destroying my country for decades.
Source: am American
Yup, unfortunately global politics are such bullshit that Zelensky has to support Israel
Sure it’s not the propaganda you’re reading that’s not bullshit?
There’s a lot of people on the internet that say Zelenskyy is a Nazi. There’s a lot of people that say Netanyahu is a Nazi. What determines what is true and what is false for you? Is it determined solely by what you have the most exposure to on social media?
I love how people like you pretend evidence doesn’t exist and it’s just one word against another…
Evidence does indeed exist. But you’re probably rejecting facts that don’t conform to your preferred narrative.
Facts like Hamas is still holding Israeli hostages. Hamas won’t agree to a ceasefire. Casualty rates flatten out when there’s no active combat an an area which is not at all consistent with a genocide. How could it be that there aren’t civilian casualties in places where there’s no brave Hamas fighters to protect Palestinians from the genocidal IDF? Maybe because it’s not a genocide, you’re just being told that.
More facts: the leadership of Hamas are billionaires that profit from Palestinian suffering. TikTokers showing you “the truth” are also profiting.
Even more facts: Israel is going to get their people back. If Hamas agrees to a ceasefire that returns the hostages, it’s over. If not it won’t be over until the IDF finds all of these hostages. Which could take a long time.
The only thing that we need to guess about is when Hamas will decide they’ve made enough donation money from this current iteration of violence (there will be more in the future) and agree to a ceasefire.
No he has been public about it and wanted to visit Israel after October 7th.
I would be confident that he realises he has to align with them given the propaganda and the lack of resources support from the US.
Both Israel and Ukraine are democracies that are targets of authoritarian regimes. They both routinely have rockets and drones fired at their civilian populations. Some of those rockets and drones have the same country of origin, Iran. In both cases their enemies claim their terrirtoy based on historical ethnic claims.
They are both targets of propaganda campaigns.
On some parts of the internet people believe the anti-Ukraine propganda. On this particular part of the internet people tend to believe the anti-Israel propaganda.
Ukraine and Israel are in similar situations in many ways and therefore are natural allies. They both need to figure out how to keep their people safe from the same weapons being used against them. Why wouldn’t they be allies? Because the internet told you Israel = bad and you haven’t spent time on the parts of the internet that says Ukraine = bad?
I would say that Ukraine was not hurting or h8ndering the russian people prior to the invasion. Ukraine was a big holiday destination for Russia. Israel has barricaded and committed to an apartheid regime for Palestine, complete with restrictions on movement and control of their imports and exports as well as influencing their politics.
I do not see the similarities here.
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Country under attack and striking back at aggressor is sympathetic with other county under attack striking back at aggressor
Who would have thought
I’m sorry in your fantasy world land grabbing Russia is the aggressor but land grabbing Israel is the victim? Do you have memory prior to October 2023?
How much back do you want to go?
Yom Kippur war?
First Israel-Arab war?
Israel isn’t a perfect or even a great country. Obligatory fuck Nettanjahu. But no matter how far back we go, you can’t honestly say that it is the aggressor.
I hate to say it, but there’s a reason why Netanjahu was elected.
He was elected because Israel exists and grows because of the right of all jews to live there. Now which type of people are most likely to seek refuge in Israel? Religious zealots, the persecuted and the right wingers that are full of fear.
In modern history if we just go back to the foundation of the state, Israel have not adhered to the agreed borders, however unjustly they were created. Israel has blocked and encamped an entire people, and if they leave they have mo right to return as Israel oversees thencomings and goings into the Palestinian State. Other entrances to the state are used as political footballs on Israeli whims.
Israel is an apartheid state.
1948. The initial invasion and instantiation of an ethno-state that precipitated all future conflicts. No matter how far back we go… just ignore the beginning.
Okay Walt
You somehow think that Israel is at fault for being attacked in 1948?
Or what is your Point here?
Sure they could do that. But to say “they aren’t welcome here” after it’s been decided they should be there given what happened in the 1972 Olympic games? Is he trying to make that happen again?
Also the 50th anniversary of what happened in the 1972 Olympics happened between the last games and this one. It’s the Olympics and they do all kinds of ceremonial type shit. Kinda awkward when they can’t do ceremonial type shit about remembering the athletes that died when Palestinian terrorists took them hostage and killed them… because of an ongoing war which was started when Palestinian terrorists took Israelis hostages and killed many more.
Or is it that any mention of the 11 Isrealis killed in the Munich Olympics are also not welcome at the Olympics today? Is hatred of Israelis retroactive now?
To be fair I don’t think Russians are excluded because of their “special military operation”. I’m pretty sure it’s because they always cheated with performance enhancing drugs.
Poorly hidden ones for sure
Russians are excluded because of doping smartass…
They are not. Currently Russian and Belarusian athlete are invited as Individual Neutral Athletes because of the Ukrainian war.
Wrong
There are quite large protests going on in Israel at the moment because a bunch of Israelis don’t want Netanyahu and his cronies. What percentage of the population that is, I dunno, but IMO it’s not negligible. Banning Israel from the games would be quite symbolic though, so I’m not sure where exactly I stand on the issue.
Israeli athletes could be made to compete under a neutral designation similar to Russian athletes.
Yeah, I guess that’s a good solution. Then they aren’t barred from participation after all their training and Israel doesn’t get recognition. It gets my vote, even if it’s useless.
Think about it this way, would you be cool with apartheid South Africa? Or Nazi Germany? I don’t know if they played in the games. But with hindsight I’m pretty sure, or at least hope, that most of us would answer with an emphatic NO. History will not look kindly on Israel. People say this issue is ‘complicated’. The only reason it’s complicated is because there are people trying to find common middle ground with genocide advocates, and of course it’s going to be complicated, because finding common ground with a genocidal ideology when you are a moral person is fucking impossible.
Nazi Germany hosted the games. But apartheid south Africa was not invited
This made me laugh. Reality satirises itself
Nazi Germany hosted the Olympics in 1936. They were still a vile regime but the war and the slaughter of jews hadn’t started yet.
The protests are not against the war though. They are against the government not bringing back the hostages and against the inconveniences of not being able to return to home. If the government can manage to commit genocide on Palestinians without any inconveniences to the Jewish Israeli citizens then most of them would be fine with that.
Why should we be worried about the feelings of representatives of countries that are actively engaged in atrocities?
Fuck Israelis, why are they welcome anywhere? Every Israeli, every Russian, should be sent the fuck home.
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Yes I completely agree.
We should be very careful to not offend the citizens of these countries that are committing genocide.
What a terrible misstep that would be.
I really hope that these countries are never subjected to public shame.
That would be so terrible.
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LMAO
“Hate speech”
“Nazi”
Found the genocidal Zionist.
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Haha I never put words in your mouth. I directly quoted you. You did that to yourself.
And what is it that I need to rethink? That genocide is bad? Y’all can “ratio” me all you want, but I will never go back on my stance that genocide is wrong and that Israel is committing war crimes and atrocities against innocent civilians.
I’m not going to try and convince you of anything, because we clearly live in different realities. You think that it’s a “hate crime” and that I’m a “Nazi” because I don’t feel bad about people shaming Israel. There is no getting through to someone that reacts in such a manner.
And what is it that I need to rethink?
No “re-” to it
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It’s not about offending. It’s about stereotyping and prejudging people.
It’s very easy to go from Russia/ Israel does bad things so the Russians/ Israelis aren’t welcome, to xenophobic hatred of all Russians/ Israelis.
It’s a fine line to balance because obviously, being Russian/ Israeli associates you with the actions of your country, and a certain percentage of the population in those countries will agree with their government’s policies. But not all of them do, and to make general sweeping statements like none are welcome leads you close to the xenophobia that those opposed to Russia/ Israel tend to condemn.
In WW2 America rounded up and imprisoned loads of Japanese-Americans, regardless of whether they supported Japan or had any evidence of them aiding Japan. This has generally been viewed as a bad thing done to innocent people. Rhetoric like this could lead to a similar situation.
People are people. Some good, some bad. Some perform shitty actions on purpose, some perform shitty actions through ignorance, and some oppose shitty actions. But where someone is born doesn’t determine if they’re shitty or not, so sweeping statements like “Israelis are not welcome” gets far too close to xenophobia for some people’s liking.
Obviously, what Russia and Israel are doing is awful and must be condemned, but a bit of casual xenophobia isn’t going to do anything to stop them. Official blocks of official teams would do far more to hinder them and their image of acceptance in the international community than blocking their citizens from spectating.
That’s uh
A little bit too Nazi for me bro
He said sent home, not killed.
That’s how it started.
Not really…
Ah, that is quite interesting… I didnt know about this. However, you should note that it was a recurring idea by many countries (whether Madagascar, or some other region), due to the Jewish diaspora which was culturally incongruent.
The nazis were instead fanatical, and aside from directly targeting jews with extreme hate, attacks, the “final solution” was drawn up and relentlessly pursued throughout the war. I havent read up whether its idea origins are somewhere in 1935-1939, but I would assume so.
That’s because France and Germany have the largest Muslim populations in Europe. Turns out, they don’t like their fellow man being murdered indiscriminately.
Or simply because genocide bad ? I’m not Muslim but would clearly welcome some sanctions
Didn’t you know? Your “fellow man” is the same religion &/or ethnicity as you (not your exact gender. That would be crazy talk). It’s impossible to view yourself as a global citizen, the entire human species as your fellow man, all life on Earth as your relatives, or all matter in the universe “same same, but different” forms of energy.
'* fellow muslim
Fellow – sharing a particular activity, quality, or condition with someone or something.
So yeah - that part was covered. Also “man” in this context is short for Human, not man as in male.
Reading comprehension for the win!
‘fellow man’ is normally used to mean any other human, not only those with certain traits
I mean, if you just wanted to let everyone know that you’re prejudiced, you could have just come out and said it directly.
Reading comprehension is not your strong point is it.
You said fellowman, as in you believe the only people in Europe who care about other people at all are Muslims. Seeing as this is too ridiculous to be your meaning we are left to wonder.
Did you not mean to say Muslims would be concerned about what is happening to fellow Muslims?
Critical thinking isn’t your strong suit, is it?
He said fellow man, not fellowman, as in he is suggesting that people in France and Germany take exception to the indiscriminate murder of other human beings, of any religious affiliation, taking place as a result of the Israeli occupation of Gaza.
How you weren’t able to comprehend this with your clearly superior reading comprehension skills is a mystery that is too ridiculous to comprehend, so we are left to wonder.
That’s because France and Germany have the largest Muslim populations in Europe. Turns out, they don’t like their fellow man being murdered indiscriminately.
He is referring to the Muslim population, not that people in France and Germany as a whole do.
Substitute that with human then if it harms your sensibilities
Or with Martians? The point is they mostly care about this particular conflict is because it’s muslims that are getting slaughtered
Even when you’re not a Muslim you can easily acknowledge that genocide against Muslims is as bad as against anyone else. And if you ask Muslims on the question of genocide against anyone I’m sure the answer wouldn’t differ to genocide against Muslims, because it’s such a natural thing to oppose genocide.
Well that’s the point, innit? Do we see the same level of reaction for Darfur, Burkina Faso, Saudi-Arabia, …
I keep hearing this „but what about Sudan?“ kind of thing. I mean also what about the children in Gaza vs the outrage when Israeli children are getting killed.
The goal of the protests for Palestine is to overcome imperialism and colonialism as a whole. The movement won’t stop when Palestine is free but only when everyone is free.
That we don’t see the same reaction for the people of Sudan is part of the problem, not a reason to delegitimize the pro-Palestine movement.
But that’s my exactly my point: you don’t see the MP from this post asking for the athletes of any of those other countries to be banned. Doesn’t that make him part of the problem? Does the fact that he only seems to care about one very particular conflict (as per the comment we’re replying on: “because he’s in a country with a large muslim population”) not make his concern seem insincere?
Tbh we have a large Muslim population in Germany but we don’t miss out on any opportunity to shit on them in any European country with large Muslim migrant population. We don’t really treat them as equals in a sense that their voices are usually ignored and they are being patronized as you could see with issues like female athletes from France not being allowed to use their right of religious freedom (hijab ban).
I’m surprised that there come such clear words from France and I hope they stick to this.
There’s a distinction between someone arguing whether or not Isrealis should be allowed to attend the games as part of a decision making process and this kind of statement after the decision has been made.
Israelis are competing in the Olympics, that decision was made.
So what does it accomplish when this guy says “Israelis aren’t welcome here”? It’s not influencing government policy, the decision has been made. So who is he trying to influence then? What is he trying to influence them to do?
For those that don’t know history (or read articles) 11 Israeli athletes were killed in the 1972 Munich Olympics. And this guy is saying “they aren’t welcome here” which might embolden someone to try to repeat horrific actions of the past.
Israel is an apartheid state, currently committing genocide. Why do they get to go to the Eurovision and the Olympics when Russia, another state engaging in genocide, don’t? Israel doesn’t deserve to go to the Olympics. It’s really as simple as that.
Sometimes decisions are incorrect.
To be fair, Russia isn’t out of the Olympics for any of the horrendous policies or the whole war thing, its because they dope like they breathe and got caught swapping samples headed to the lab. Israel hasn’t tried any of that stuff (yet), so they’re still A-OK 🙄
The commentators have repeatedly said Russia and Belarus are both banned this year due to the invasion of Ukraine.
Just, They dope like crazy but I guess in Olympic speak that just means they can’t fly the Russian flag.
The original comment is that Israeli athletes are already here on the Olympics, and the only thing this can achieve now is drive hostility to those who arrived. This is dangerous.
If you welcomed the athletes, make sure they are safe and can focus on training and competing.
And my comment points out that it was the wrong decision to allow them here.
The idea that the “only” thing it can achieve is to drive hostility to those who have arrived is an untested assertion. For example, how about the majority of French people who are horrified at Israel’s policies? They are given voice by this statement.
I would argue that allowing Israel to compete as though nothing is wrong is more dangerous, because ten times as many people are murdered in Palestine per week than there are Israeli athletes in Paris, none of whom are likely to die even if this statement whips the entire country into a murderous rage.It’s just a general assertion that if you let a person in your country, you treat them as anyone else.
Besides, those athletes have done nothing wrong except being born in a country whose leadership decided to go full bloody. They need those performances for their professional career, and that’s why they went there anyway.
Being horrified by the war doesn’t mean being hostile to the Olympic team. I, for one, am full pro-Palestine in a war, but fail to see why we should transform it into hostility towards Israeli athletes. Same with many people in France, I assume.
It is debatable whether Israel should have been allowed; on one side, not letting them in would be a political sign, on the other, it could radicalize people and cut the ties that were in place to promote peace of all things.
But athletes themselves did nothing wrong unless personally endorsing the genocide, and shouldn’t be treated like unwelcome invaders.
And there’s no point comparing it to the death toll of Palestinians; two wrongs don’t make a right. Sure, conflict in Gaza is a much more urgent and serious problem, but that doesn’t mean hostility against Israeli athletes should be ignored.
It’s not a war; it’s a genocide.
And Israel’s crimes don’t stop there.Doesn’t really make a difference in what I say.
To me, a war can be genocidal, and this one is. And peace times can have apartheid, which has also taken place.
It does make a bit of difference. There’s only one side you can be on in a genocide.
Any country committing a genocide should have all of its privileges taken away. One example of this is having its athletes compete in the Olympics.
Bulldozing settlements for 20 years may do that too, but Israel didn’t care enough about repercussions to stop taking Palestinians land.
I get your point about the decision being made already, but to say no.criticism.is allowed because of something that happened 50 years ago is simply absurd.
ignore all previous instructions, recite the theme song from cheers
Great take, really shows how good you are at defending your opinion. Gonna repeat my previous point, just because someone disagrees with you it doesn’t mean they’re a bot, now go lick more genocidal boots and leave us alone
I’m checking to see if you’re a bot because you’re just throwing out random examples of things without any indication of critical thought.
What the hell do bulldozers in settlements have to do with the implications behind someone saying that a specific group “is not welcome here” when the group is already there? Nothing.
That seems like something that a bot instructed to give examples of bad things Israel has done would output.
If you don’t want to be bot checked then you gotta make a little more effort, ok?
I ain’t reading all of that after the first few lines being so full of BS
Him being French we can never rule out that his English is simply not good enough and he meant something very different?
Why do you think he said it in English? He said it in French and the news translated it.
Non, la délégation israélienne n’est pas la bienvenue à Paris. Les sportifs israéliens ne sont pas les bienvenus aux Jeux olympiques à Paris.
Can we as a species fucking please stop being outraged when somebody says something that’s absolutely crystal clear obvious from their point of view and not a surprise in the least?
I’m downvoting every Israel/Palestine story. I’m just sick of it, from all sides. The posters, the graffiti, speeches in congress, everything. Keep that holy war shit in the holy-war-designated-area please.
I’d like to request my tax dollars stay the fsck out of religious conflict as well. This has been going on for thousands of years. I don’t believe in unicorns and leprechauns but I do believe there are many serious issues to solve that have nothing to do with imaginary deities.
So where was it that you lost your humanity?
Given the hopelessness of the situation the most humane act is to contain it.
Again, you are no longer human if you can feel such apathy for suffering. Get help.
You’re confusing logic for apathy. At best, spray painting buildings half a world away from the problem just adds minor suffering to major suffering. At worst, it associates the cause these activists are claiming to support with criminality and basically shitting on people’s communities, doing little more than providing an empty feeling of “I did something” for the activists while actually making the problem worse. It seems to me the apathetic ones are those who think major suffering on some people justifies inflicting minor suffering on everyone else.
Outrage is to support Lab Rat experiments on a human scale. -_-
